87 2.9, no spark with spout timing plug in

[cyborgv1]

I've been having stalling issues for a while now, it used to go a few miles, to a few hundred without stalling. It would stall when the tfi was cold to the touch, and hot enough that I didn't think of touching anything.

I replaced the rotor, distributor cap, wires, plugs, relays, map, and the ignition coil. I also checked all the wiring possible, fixing any suspect issues I came across. I found a few suspect wires, mainly on the harness for the alternator, and a few solder joints where the insulation tape crumbled at the touch.

My spark is not blue, and before changing the coil, it was a very thin orange spark out of the coil. Replacing the coil produced a very fat orange spark, and got the truck started and home.

It was still stalling out, but seemed to be more fuel related as it would sputter and stall instead of just going completely dead. I cleaned the throttle body, upper intake, and the IAC. At the fuel rail, I'll get a short spurt of gas, and nothing more. I replaced the fuel filter, and the high pressure pump since it didn't sound like it used to. The fuel rail still acted the same so I checked with the gas tank cap off, and it produces a steady stream that will hit the hood for several seconds. I'll check the venting issue on the tank later.

Went to try and start and I get a single spark from the coil. One spark and nothing. I replaced the TFI with a new one since the two I have all seem suspect to me. The new TFI still produces one spark.

I replaced the TFI because I thought I might have fried it while replacing the pump. I forgot I had the ignition on a time or two, and yanked the battery cables.

Just to be sure, I've checked almost all the wiring and all the grounds I can find, and I'll go over it again when the truck is at my house. All the exposed metal checks out at the highest .3 ohms (cheap meter, and leads) when checked to the disconnected negative battery lead. I've also checked for rotation of the distributor, there's no up and down, or side to side play either.

My worst fear is that I might have fried the computer. I get plenty of the fat orange spark with the spout "pill" removed. I was able to get it to start once while checking a random spark plug cable for spark. Fuel pumps turn on everytime, and after attempting to start, I can run the pumps using the test connector so I know the relays are all good.

My current symptoms now are a single spark, and no tach response (doesn't even twitch) with the SPOUT plug in. Once removed, I get good tach response (600 rpms) , and a thick orange spark. Codes for KOEO are 11-1-11. The last known KOER code I got was 25, knock test failed. Could be an error on my part to hit the throttle at the right time.

As far as I can tell, it can either be the hall effect, or the ecc. I've pulled the computer and the harness looks very clean, and new. No corrosion inside the computer, or on the connectors.

Does the SPOUT "bypass" the hall effect?
What are the chances of damaging the ECC from yanking battery leads?

 

[jhammel85]

I have a few ideas here...

Any kind of sudden spike could damage a computer. If you've been doing that, it could definitely happen. If you think it's the EEC, try the new pickup inside of the dist 1st. It's cheap and if thats it, its much cheaper than an EEC from a junkyard.

Check the timing too (with the spout removed of course). I don't think it could have anything to do with it but since the spout jumps the circuit and helps the computer control timing, it might be way off. Just a thought, I don't really know how the computer could weaken the spark...It just changes it's timing from what I understand.

Did you check the whole wire that runs from the Spout to the computer? Try taking voltage before and after the Spout. perhaps something is stuck inside of the connector??? The same voltage going into the spout should be the same as the voltage leaving it. Just like a relay.

If you do find that the computer is dead, let me know. I have 2 for an 87. One is remanufactured with a Jet Chip. I don't want much for one. Especially if it helps someone out of a jam.

 

[Earl43P]

http://www.therangerstation.com/tec...es/Diagrams_ElectronciEngControls2_9_3of3.JPG

You see that TFI Ignition Shield?
It's simply an overbraid surrounding those wires, shunted to ground. It may even be foil.
See if either end of the PK wire is shorted to that shield.

 

[cyborgv1]

I'm hoping it's not the eec, but I wouldn't be surprised, especially with me being careless, and that it used to spark before that. I've partially followed the wiring from the spout to the firewall, but had to stop by the air filter box because it's parked in a dirt lot a few miles from where I live. I did check the resistance of the spout plug itself, and it reads .1 ohms. I also checked from the tfi harness to the spout plug, and get about the same there. Checking it to ground, I get a solid open. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I do think I had a few k going through the computer side to ground. I'll check again later today though, I'm getting a tow home from a friend in a few hours.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it started again with spout out. It was kind of tricky the first time, and I give that one more to luck than anything. I know it definitely sparks, and fires with the spout removed, but if the eec is flaky, there's no telling what it's telling the iac, or the injectors to do.

I read in another thread to force the coil to spark by very quickly grounding the green wire, so I'll also check that to see if I get a better spark that way. That could indicate malfunctioning transistors in the eec, or a bad wire somewhere in the control circuits.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try to get it to TDC on the compression stroke when I get it home, check for the timing mark, and the distro position before pulling. I did notice a screw seems to be missing from the tfi connector inside the distributor, but I can't find it anywhere in there, and there's no damage, corrosion, or metal bits in there that I can see. Didn't see any when I had the upper intake off. The TFI fully seats in the connector and everything feels very solid, but you never really can tell.

Any tips on getting the harness out of the firewall? I refuse to cut the wires since that leaves a big mess, and will always be suspect any time it won't start.

 

[cyborgv1]

Yeah, I checked the shielding once I got spark with spout removed. The shielding on mine is nothing more than a fancy strip of aluminum. There's no damage up to the air box, but that's about all I've been able to check so far. I'm hoping to be able to pull the whole harness later today and thoroughly go over everything.

 

[cyborgv1]

Just got the truck towed home. Still won't start, but it'll try pretty hard with the spout removed. Put it where I believe TDC on the compression stroke is. Pretty much set the distributor rotor where the number 1 plug is, and checked for compression at the cylinder. If I'm reading it right, the pointer is right around the 22 mark, so I'm guessing it's pretty out of time. Not sure how, since I can't seem to loosen the bolt on the distributor, and I can't move it anywhere.

Also managed to yank the entire harness, and found a few wires with plenty of missing insulation. One is I believe the 2 wire oil pressure sensor, one came from the side of the transmission by the gear selection linkage, and the other was down by the waterpump underneath the power steering/ac area. Haven't fully cleaned them up yet, just what I saw as soon as the connectors were pulled. Definitely wasn't hard removing that grommet.

But, back to the main issue, if I'm at TDC, and the pointer is at 22, I'm 12 degrees off, right? Also how does the distributor come off? I'd read, and thought that it was a fairly accessible bolt that was easy to remove.

 

[Vanner1993]

A 1/2 inch bolt right next to the distributor with the hold down clamp holds it in. I get to it with a standard 1/2 wrench.

 

[cyborgv1]

I just looked in my haynes manual to make sure I was working the right bolt. Definitely had the right one, so I'll try a shorter wrench tomorrow. Both of my 1/2" wrenches are about 7 inches long. I figured it wouldn't hurt to spray it with some engine cleaner to and clean it up before removing it. Everything bolted on to the engine is somehow covered in oils.

 

[jhammel85]

You can also try a 13MM 5 point socket with an extension.

 

[cyborgv1]

Thanks for the tip jhammel85. Ended up having to use the 13mm, an extension. That was on there incredibly tight. Ended up getting a re-manned distributor because with the core charge, I was only 10$ over the cost of the pickup, and the shaft of my old one was pretty badly glazed with some small twists of metal in there. Didn't see any scoring on the shaft, but the grease would have cost me 10$ so I just got a re-man.

Haven't started it yet because I had the wire harness out. I didn't find anything a long the spout, but I found some cracked and peeling insulation on the ground to the passenger side manifold area, what I think was the 2 wire oil pressure, something on the transmission, and something underneath the power steering pump. The one under the pump had 2 inches missing, and a pretty big direct melt point. Hopefully I'll get a chance to finish it tomorrow and give it a crank.

 

[jhammel85]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Hope it starts!

 

[cyborgv1]

Sorry for the late replay, between work, and bad weather I haven't had much time to work things out.

A few things I learned along the way:

the little wires on the relays turn them on or off.
The big wires go to the stuff the relays turn on. They're also at right angles to each other, not the logical side by side setup.

The big round connecter on the driver side that doesn't go to the alternator will make it seem like your neutral safety switch is messed up, or not connected right. pretty much no crank, no click, nothing.

The wires on the transmission were the 2 wire oil pressure and the neutral safety switch connector. Not easy to take off, but much easier to put on with a little dielectric grease to lubricate things a bit.

As for the original problem, I'm almost positive the pickup in the distributor was the problem. The truck runs terrible, but it sparks every time, and will start without a problem. Now on to timing.

Any tips for messing with the distro hold down bolt? I replaced mine with the upper intake removed, and it was fairly easy. I'll try the 13mm socket on a few extensions. I also made sure not to over tighten it like I found it.

one last point, my spark is still fat, and orange, but it seems to be doing the job. I'll look into that more once I get it all timed.

EDIT:
Forgot to mention, it starts with the SPOUT connector both in, and out. Spark is the same from the coil, or plug. Sparks when I think it should, without missing with or without the SPOUT. So, it seems removing the SPOUT will bypass a defective hall effect/pickup.

 

[cyborgv1]

I'm having a bit of trouble getting the distro on right, seems I'm either one tooth too high, or one tooth too low. I'm sitting about 14 for the timing right now with the distro twisted pretty far back to the firewall.

It seems to run pretty good, but I don't go with good enough, especially when I have the right tools. I'm going to do a drive test when I can get it in the 10-12 mark, and I'm satisfied that I can get the tfi module off without adjusting the distro. Mainly since I'm going to one day move that little module. After pulling the distro from an uncomfortably warm engine and realizing the distro is too hot to handle, I know for a fact I don't want anything electronic bolted on there.

Thanks for the help again, and I'll update in a few weeks after I find out if it's fixed the intermittent stalling problem.

 

[jhammel85]

If you are having problems with the distributor, Just do what I did: move all wires counter clockwise or clockwise to fix problem. I kept missing it and being one tooth off...So once it sank in one more time, one tooth off, this was my fix. It works fine..Just dont forget about what you did if you ever mix up your wires. #1 wont be in the 11 o clock position anymore.

 

[cyborgv1]

A few more seating attempts and I got it right. Timing is set at 11, and I haven't had a stall, stumble, or trouble starting since. I get about 14mpg now, unless I have to 4-wheel it and then I get a few less.

I'm calling this one fixed. Seems pretty rare for an intermittent hall sensor, but like any electronic component sitting in a harsh environment, no type of failure is out of the question.

Thanks for all the help and advice.