why all "water car/hydrogen generators" are scams

[Jason]

What someone that cares enough to put time in to this argument (I don't) needs to do is this.

1. Find the amount of Hydrogen that can be generated in one of these "units"
2. Find the btu's of that hydrogen.
3. Calculate the power generated through combustion of the hydrogen into watts.
4. Compared the power, in watts, needed to make the hydrogen.

That would end all of this.

 

[thoughtcriminal]

this arguement it ended quite simply by the laws of thermodynamics

in an absolute perfect environment, you would get exactly as much energy from burning the hydrogen as you would from splitting the water.

However, this perfect environment does not exist, therefor some energy is lost though heat, leaks, and any other imperfection in the system.

You will NEVER get as much energy out of something as you put into it. Proven fact of physics.

This is the same reason that certain hybrids are also bullshit. If you are using an engine to create electrical current, then using that current to power the vehicle, you are losing huge amounts of energy to friction, heat, and current leak.

Long story short: You are better off just avoiding these things, best case scenario with them, they will do nothing

 

[hiwy101]

All of you miss the point of why people keep buying the HHO thing. They want to save $$$. This isn't wrong. But the average person like you have all said doesn't understand that fact that HHO systems arent going to win ever. Because of the media and other things everyone has fixated on water and hydrogen as future fuel. There hasnt been a widspread readily avaliable use of a hydrogen car that I know of unless something happend last week or something.

As with Ebay scams of various types and con-artists. Where there is money to be made in stupidity there will be products that stupid people buy. hence money making opportunitys. People should educate themselves and understand physics and anything really about a purchase. But the average person won't take a physics class usually. they just want instant savings. So i'm sure you all will have many many many many many many many threads like "renos" that will buy into it. Its annoying and stupid, but it is what it is.

But its the people who believe in something spite everyone else that comes out with things anew. Im sure people thought henry ford was a nutcase. As well As alexander graham bell. Tesla was believed to be crazy as well. But tesla was crazy enough to believe electricity would work. People thought electricity was dangerous, and It is. Over time we learned to harness electricity and use it safely. Fortunately for us these people weren't stupid. That is what makes the difference, Drive AND Intelligence. I hope the education system improves. otherwise we have a problem.

 

[1983dieselranger]

I have a HHO Generator on a 1994 Ford Ranger With 31x10.50 Tires its a 5 speed 4x4 and Extended Cab. I took a road trip aproximatly 100 miles (can't remember the exact mileage) i tried keeping my foot out of it it was 75% interstate driving. I Filled up before i left (completely) then i filled up when i got back and divided my mileage by the EXACT gallons. I got 18 point some odd miles to the gallons. The truck as 172,000 miles on it. With the tires being larger and the speedo not corrected i might have got 19 something to the gallon. Thats pretty believeable huh?????
I then installed an HHO generator pulling a max of 21 and some odd amps. Haven't bothered seeing how much output (litres/minute). I take another road trip 75% Interstate driving. I fill up COMPLETELY before i leave i drive there i drive back and once again i drove it easy but not what you would call trying to hyper mile (shuting your car off when coming upon an intersection or down a hill) I would accelerate slowly and not drive 75mph JUST LIKE THE OTHER TRIP. When i got back i had driven 75 miles and it took not even 3.1 gallons to fill it up. Just barely over 3 gallons. You tell me the mileage. Some may not know. Thats 25 mpg and maybe just maybe 26 with the uncorrected speedo.
You can't deny facts and I COULD CARE LESS if anyone believes me but i know what i am getting out of my truck now with the HHO generator. Driving to work and back with lots of city driving i am getting 22 to 23 mpg. With occasional hot rodding.
Another FACT. I tried climbing a steep hill in 5th gear at 40 mph (sharp curve at the bottom and can't come out of the curve fast) I bogged out in 5th and had to go to 4th. One week later same temp and no weather diffrences i hit the same hill at the same speed but this time i had my HHO generator installed and i lost 2mph in 5th gear and never had to go to 4th. So i am not a rocket scientist but that tells me that the HHO is putting out more power than the alternator is consuming powering the contraption. I know there is someone gonna say its a lie so once again I COULD CARE LESS IF YOU BELIEVE ME .
I know what i know and i can't deny the facts that i see and continue to see.

 

[DeMilled_83_4x4]

Hey 83dieselranger, what do you suppose would happen if you were to fabricate a bracket to hold an additional alternator on your engine, say in place of the airconditioner compressor or the smog pump, and used this second alternator to power two more (or one large) HHO cells? Think you may get more power out of the HHO than the amount of engine power used to turn the alt.?

I see you can buy high amp. alts. up to 200amps from the aftermarket crowd. I bet you could run some large cells, or several small ones, with 200amps......wonder what that would do for your gas milage?

 

[bobbywalter]

I'm drinking right now, but there's a coupld of things I didn't see anyone consider here....

1. So do those energy calculations include the effect of expanding steam in a cylinder?

2. The vehicle is propelled by an engine fueled by gasoline and hydrogen. The alternator is driven by the engine. The hydrogen is obtained from WATER. Water is cheap compared to gasoline.

3. Hydrogen from electrolysis is gaseous. No vaporization required.

4. You can't argue with real folks who report their honest gasoline consumption/MPG.

ya know....your close with this. there is something that changes, at least in certain ragged engines, especially diesels. practical reality and classroom/book theory knock heads often, and it can result with alot of modified theoryor maybe has changed the understanding of applied theory.


say...most people think oem is the ideal... it is not. more room for improvment then you can shake a stick at in many cases when it comes to power or mpg...but it will cost emmisions in most cases when one or the other is messed with..so yeah oem is usually ideal...for the guide posts it was setup under. dog chases tail.

 

[1983dieselranger]

Hey 83dieselranger, what do you suppose would happen if you were to fabricate a bracket to hold an additional alternator on your engine, say in place of the airconditioner compressor or the smog pump, and used this second alternator to power two more (or one large) HHO cells? Think you may get more power out of the HHO than the amount of engine power used to turn the alt.?

I see you can buy high amp. alts. up to 200amps from the aftermarket crowd. I bet you could run some large cells, or several small ones, with 200amps......wonder what that would do for your gas milage?

I have been told i have a 135 amp alternator in my 94 4 litre. I have never checked to verify but whatever amp alternator i got it sure does the job fine. I run my HHO Generator all the time that pulls 20 amps. I run the headlights with fog lights , the air conditioner full blast and the radio on and my engine doesn't bog any. I can turn the HHO Gen on and the engine doesn't lost rpm in the least bit.

As for your question. I have talked to several people that mentioned doing the second alternator. It seems like a really good idea. My buddy built a HHO Gen that pulled around 100 amps or at least i was told on straight water with no catalyst (baking soda). He said it REALLY put out the HHO but i wasn't there to see it. But i am sure it would work.

One thing i was wondering about people stating there is more btu's in gasoline than in Hydrogen. I know if i light the tube coming out of my HHO Gen it explodes and i mean explodes not enough to hurt you from where you are lighting it but it has a really loud crack to it. I don't think gasoline would ignite like that. Its more of a slow burning fuel. I haven't done any research on this but just something that i was wondering. Maybe gas would burn hotter but i don't think burning hotter would be any better but the more explosive it is then the quicker the piston is gonna get shoved down making more power. I know diesel has a lot more btu's than gasoline but it makes less horse power. Maybe more torque. So with that stated does the btu's really matter? Don't any body shoot me down and attack me like reno! I was just wondering

 

[MAKG]

You can make gasoline ignite like that, and hurt you VERY badly in the process, if you mix it with the appropriate amount of air. You aren't too likely to do that with liquid gasoline because the mixture is ridiculously rich. But it's quite difficult to control the mixture upon evaporation, so I would only suggest such a thing to the extraordinarily foolhardy.

Noise is not energy. How much energy do you suppose there is in a frat boy's beer fart?

 

[thegoat4]

You can make gasoline ignite like that, and hurt you VERY badly in the process, if you mix it with the appropriate amount of air. You aren't too likely to do that with liquid gasoline because the mixture is ridiculously rich. But it's quite difficult to control the mixture upon evaporation, so I would only suggest such a thing to the extraordinarily foolhardy.

Noise is not energy. How much energy do you suppose there is in a frat boy's beer fart?

Frat boy farts hold enough horsepower to move at least two metric tons of frat boys and sluts out of a room in less than a second. Depending on the size of the room and the doors, that's a lot of horsepower!

 

[oldbaldy454]

My engineer son-in-law and I built a HHO generator in a 4" ABS tube with stainless steel wall plates, draws 20-25 amps and bubbles really good...We hooked it up to the Ranger at the PCV valve inlet near the throttle body with a 3/8" tube and let it run.

At idle speed we noticed no difference. Then I pulled the connector off of the IAC and dropped the idle down to 400-500 rpm and he also covered the Airbox snorkle inlet with his hand, as I fed the tube into the PCV valve inlet. It idled normally with the HHO gas running the engine, proof enough for us that it was running on almost pure hydrogen. When we pulled the H fed tube out, the idle speed dropped down where the engine almost stalled.
We did that several times and said "damn, it works".

Check engine light came on and we reset it by disconnecting battery.

Our next design will be something to fit under the Ranger's hood without melting.
There is very little room to mount anything with the 3.0 FFV engine and the heat from the exhaust manifold will probably not help. There is barely enough room to set a 4" diameter canister in front of the A/C heater connections.

We saw one of the You Tube Videos where a guy had put a rectangular stainless steel box in the trunk (if you can call it that) of a Prius and ran it cross country that yielded an improvement from 48 mpg to 66 mpg. His rate of H gas production was controlled by a variac mounted on his consule next to the drivers seat connected to the output of a 1800 watt DC to AC converter in the trunk. Then he used the AC thru a diode rectifier arrangement (bridge or ?)to feed the H generator plates.

Another guy re-fed his H generator with water from the windshield washer contatner
and the suction from the bubbler pulled the water in as needed...Hey is that neat or what?

I've had one person try to sell me an $1100 H system from:
http://www.hafctechnology.com/index.htm
Looks to be the best one around and with proven results.

Another kit is priced more reasonable at $170 at
http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/


For those of you believers, let me know what you are using on your Rangers in a private message. Thanks.

JB, retired electronics instructor, with time on his hands to fiddle with technology

 

[MAKG]

An electronics instructor that doesn't know you need AIR to burn hydrogen?

Cover the air inlet and NOTHING will burn. Sounds like you and your engineer son forgot to check for vacuum leaks. Covering the air inlet should ALWAYS stall the engine. You have demonstrated beyond a doubt that you are modifying a broken engine.

No, you can't say it works if your engine is broken. Hydrogen changes the stoichiometric mixture, so it will respond to your vacuum leak in a different way. It doesn't say one whit about it "working."

 

[Jason]

Can we name this whole area of TRS the "MAKG says your wrong" Forum?

 

[MAKG]

Can we name this whole area of TRS the "MAKG says your wrong" Forum?

I don't say everything is wrong. But this so-called "HHO" thing is.

For instance, I don't see fundamental reasons why the butanol idea won't work. There are practical reasons -- largely, there is no way to buy or produce anywhere near adequate butanol at the moment -- but that's very different from the fundamental reasons why water is not a fuel; it can change. Hydrogen can be used as an energy storage device, for instance in fuel cells (though it's really not obvious that it's better than just using a battery these days).

And it's VERY telling that every last one of the guys who claim it works refuses to use correct methodologies, or else makes appeals to "believers" (or both). Belief has nothing to do with objective reality.

 

[Jason]

I don't say everything is wrong. But this so-called "HHO" thing is.

For instance, I don't see fundamental reasons why the butanol idea won't work. There are practical reasons -- largely, there is no way to buy or produce anywhere near adequate butanol at the moment -- but that's very different from the fundamental reasons why water is not a fuel; it can change. Hydrogen can be used as an energy storage device, for instance in fuel cells (though it's really not obvious that it's better than just using a battery these days).

And it's VERY telling that every last one of the guys who claim it works refuses to use correct methodologies, or else makes appeals to "believers" (or both). Belief has nothing to do with objective reality.

My idea just fits right now given the ABUNDANCE of HHO threads. I wish this stuff would be more volatile so it would explode and destroy the computers of everyone that wants to talk about it.

 

[DeMilled_83_4x4]

For those of you believers, let me know what you are using on your Rangers in a private message. Thanks.

JB, retired electronics instructor, with time on his hands to fiddle with technology

You have a PM.