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Thermostat chat, Ranger temp obsession (let's split some hairs)


JohnnyO

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Also I am running a 13lb cap. Also I revived this thread partially to piss off Dirtman 😁
Late model Sport Tracs have a 20 lb cap and also suffer from cracked t-stat housings and radiators. I stumbled on a fix which is now part of the Sport Trac board which is to replace the OE cap with one for a 98-00 Mustang V6 that is 16 lb.
 


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There is also an aluminum thermostat housing out there for 4.0 SOHC engines if one is inclined to skip the plastic housing all together.
 

Eddo Rogue

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Late model Sport Tracs have a 20 lb cap and also suffer from cracked t-stat housings and radiators. I stumbled on a fix which is now part of the Sport Trac board which is to replace the OE cap with one for a 98-00 Mustang V6 that is 16 lb.
Holy crap 20lbs, and plastic housing! Why would they even do that? Seems like obvious tolerance conflict, or should be to an engineer...
 

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What a goat rope this thread is :) Can I play?

The cooling system is designed to handle the maximum heat output of the engine with some extra and with auto trans also provide some cooling for the trans as well. If it is in factory new condition, the max temp of the engine will be the temp at which the thermostat is fully open. Tstats rated for lower degrees will fully open sooner and the max engine temp will lower than higher rated Tstats. Having said that, the engine load dictates heat generated. IOW wide open throttle under load makes more heat than idle with no load, higher rpm makes more heat than lower rpm generally but now always due to load.

Under light loads and moderate ambient temp your cooling system should run just above the temp where Tstat starts to open. as load and ambient temp increases the Tstat opens further. If it reaches full open temp the rest of the cooling system should be able to let the temp rise no further. So if your 180 tstat is fully open at 200 degrees then it should get no hotter then 200 degrees with a properly functioning cooling system regardless of temp or load. The rub is when things get dirty, old or you add more power to the engine.

Why use a colder rated thermostat? Generally that would be for more power and resistance to detonation, which is why you typically see tuners go with lower rated Tstats.

Why would running colder then factory be bad? Tolerances in the engine are larger, things like ring seal is not as good and you get more blow-by into the crankcase wasting fuel and losing power, the blow by is re-run through the engine and contaminates components (that crud in your intake manifold for example). Bearing tolerances are larger and more oil is lost through gaps reducing oil flow to the rest of the engine. Engine oil is not able to burn off moisture as easily and leads to shorter oil life and circulates contaminates through the engine longer. Lower temps require more fuel and fuel economy will go down even if doesn't not appear in a miles per gallon calculation at the pump.

Clutch fan vs E-fan. Efans provide full fan speed continuously, clutch or direct mounted fans rely on engine speed. That's why an E-fan can really lower temps in traffic. Clutch fans will use HP all the time, even if the clutch was able to disengage the fan completely, spinning the clutch assembly takes power. So when the engine needs no fan cooling you are using some fuel just to turn the weight of the fan clutch. There's no free lunch with the E-fan either, the power to turn it has to come from somewhere and that is the alternator, when the E-fan is running the alternator is loading the engine. The question is how much? But again the E-fan advantage of only running when the set temp is reached means that it only runs when needed. As an example, I drove 3 miles to the grocery store, cold start to the parking lot at the store and the E-fan did not turn on. It was 85 degrees and sunny. Open roads with only a couple stops at intersections and the air flowing through the radiator was enough to keep the engine down below the point the E-fan would turn on. If I had driven for miles on the highway the E-fan would have been off and if I had a clutch fan then engine would be spinning that fan clutch at almost 3000 rpm the whole way taking more hp and using more fuel.
 

8thTon

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Clutch fan vs E-fan. Efans provide full fan speed continuously, clutch or direct mounted fans rely on engine speed. That's why an E-fan can really lower temps in traffic. Clutch fans will use HP all the time, even if the clutch was able to disengage the fan completely, spinning the clutch assembly takes power. So when the engine needs no fan cooling you are using some fuel just to turn the weight of the fan clutch. There's no free lunch with the E-fan either, the power to turn it has to come from somewhere and that is the alternator, when the E-fan is running the alternator is loading the engine. The question is how much? But again the E-fan advantage of only running when the set temp is reached means that it only runs when needed. As an example, I drove 3 miles to the grocery store, cold start to the parking lot at the store and the E-fan did not turn on. It was 85 degrees and sunny. Open roads with only a couple stops at intersections and the air flowing through the radiator was enough to keep the engine down below the point the E-fan would turn on. If I had driven for miles on the highway the E-fan would have been off and if I had a clutch fan then engine would be spinning that fan clutch at almost 3000 rpm the whole way taking more hp and using more fuel.
The clutch fan is designed to provide enough air flow at idle to cool the engine with max heat load - it is usually much greater pitch than an e-fan, and it will slip at higher rpm if not required. A modern engine control system is also capable of raising the rpm a bit if needed (like with the AC on). As for the spinning clutch taking power, this is false at steady rpm. The mass of the clutch is simply a flywheel, it will absorb energy when you accelerate it and give it back when you decelerate. Since you must drive the waterpump anyway the belt friction losses are the same.
 

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Dirtman

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I should note. I built my 289 from scratch and one of my big concerns was I live in the northeast and drive my car in the winter. Sitting around wating for heat sucks. With a normal water pump, flex fan and thermostat and a huge 4 core radiator it would take 45 minutes before some heat came out. With an electric fan, and electric water pump run on a computer controller the water pump always comes on at "low" which is similar to a closed thermostat. The ECT sensor gives exact temps and sets the fan and water pump. So not only does my mustang warm up faster but it stays at the precise temp set by the computer. No guess work. That engine runs best at a ECT temp of 175 (this is not the temp a thermostat would see). If I ran a thermostat I would probably still need to run a 195... there is no guessing or balancing, sensor and computer does the work and keeps that engine perfect no matter if its idling in 20 degree weather or running down a drag strip on a 110 degree day. The computer knows the perfect temp and keeps it there. Mechanical crap just cant do that.
 

RonD

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Yes, reads like a neat system but.............................

The size of the radiator doesn't matter, except for OVER heating

The engine takes XX minutes to get coolant to say 130deg, different for each engine, and the heater core is part of this system, so its at 130deg as well at the same time, so a bit of heat in the cab, have to wait 3 or 4 minutes more for the 180-190deg heat

The speed of the water pump wouldn't matter, except for OVER heating, coolant circulating slow or fast in a CLOSED system transfers heat equally
It may seem like if it circulates slower it would warm up faster BUT...........its a closed system so the cooler areas make the slower moving coolant a moot point because all the coolant needs to warm up


Radiator only comes into play when and IF thermostat opens, on some engines radiator is not even used in the winter time
 

8thTon

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With a closed thermostat the engine does not have to heat the volume of coolant in the radiator before you get heat in the cab. That can stay cold until the rest of the coolant is warm.
 

Eddo Rogue

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I have been running one of these to monitor my temps and put actual numbers to the factory temp gauge.


1592668700457.png


My factory temp hovers right around the middle. Once warm, the digital temp shows between 185 and 198. The sensor is plumbed into heat hose coming from waterpump. I am running motorcraft 195 thermostat.

Seems tip top, not messing w/ it for now...until I get bored enough to attempt the efan swap again.
 

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Ford temp gauges usually have 205-210deg as the center line, so needle should run just under 1/2 after full warm up
But there no close calibration of these needle gauges, lol
 

Eddo Rogue

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Ford temp gauges usually have 205-210deg as the center line, so needle should run just under 1/2 after full warm up
But there no close calibration of these needle gauges, lol
I figured either the sensor is off, or its due to location (the waterpump to heater line)

I am gonna splice in another pickup at the upper radiator hose. I also have a nice auto meter gauge I may swap in.
 

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Well upper rad hose temp will be low until engine warms up and thermostat starts to open
Heater hose was the better choice, it warms up with engine

Lower rad hose might be a better choice, if you are keeping the heater hose temp gauge as well
It would show you the cooling capacity of the radiator and fan in different driving conditions
 

Eddo Rogue

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Crossed threads are tight threads.
Well upper rad hose temp will be low until engine warms up and thermostat starts to open
Heater hose was the better choice, it warms up with engine

Lower rad hose might be a better choice, if you are keeping the heater hose temp gauge as well
It would show you the cooling capacity of the radiator and fan in different driving conditions
I can do the lower hose as well, and probably will, having read that.
Yes I will keep and eventually use both, one for the temp gauge, the other for the efan switch, which will probably go in the heater hose. Temp gauge in lower hose.... Right?
 

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Holy crap 20lbs, and plastic housing! Why would they even do that? Seems like obvious tolerance conflict, or should be to an engineer...
Emissions, cost, and weight.
 

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