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2.3L ('83-'97) Stuck on side of road. Crank no start, has spark?


Gypsy Freedom

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Current status.

85 fuel injected 2.3 lima ranger 5 speed 4x4

Cranks nice "sounds like" has compression.
Timing belt intact.
Nice rythmic spark

Suspect "fuel" issue. Just came home for some tools. Headed back shortly, open to suggestion on where to look first

This is what happened to get to this point

Alternator stopped charging due to a wiring issue. Did not notice till radio started cutting out and engine stumbled a few times. Turned around and headed home and drove as far as i could. Pulled over with engine still idling but no response. Engine died moments later. Hitched a ride home grabbed generator and 30 amp cc battery charger. Charged battery to 80% or so. Hit the key and she cranked right up. Ran nice and smooth. Then just as i went to get out to put stuff away and head home engine died no sputter, just like it shut off or ran out of gas. Engine ran 10-15 seconds, maybe?

Tried to restart but just cranks. Battery cranks it good and sounds like it has compression. Good rythmic spark at coil wire. Does not cough/sputter or make any other indication of trying to light. Seams like a no fuel situation.

My gut tells me fuel pump bit the dust. Will be headed back down to test shortly.

Any other thoughts on what i might check if the pump tests out ok, or something more likely i should check first.

Hope to get her fired back up without having to drag a trailer down and hand which her up on the trailer.

Any thoughts or suggests are greatly appreaciated

Thanks
 


RonD

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Do 50/50 test

Spay fuel into the intake and crank engine over
If it starts and dies then yes, fuel delivery is the issue
If it doesn't start then spark or compression is the issue
50/50 instant results

With the 1983-1997 2.3l the timing belt can break causing loss of compression, just a heads up, engine won't be damaged, just won't fire at all


You should be able to hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds each time key is turned ON
Turn key off and on as much as needed to see if you can hear it
There is also a test port on the engine/fuel rail, that works like a tires air valve, has a center pin you can press to see if there is pressure in the system, be careful, it can spray a long ways if its at 30-40psi
 

Gypsy Freedom

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Pump pumps, but pressure is quite low. Is there easy in vehicle test to determine if it is the pump just not putting out. Or if it is a failed fuel pressure regulator?
 

RonD

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So its starts up with 50/50 test?

An open fuel pressure regulator would still allow engine to start and drive, but engine would start to stall out at speed
The pump can do 65psi, and all you need to start is about 10psi, normal operating pressure in pre-1998 Ranger is 30psi
 

Gypsy Freedom

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No simple and SAFE way to introduce fuel into the horizontal throttle body with the tools n time at my disposal. The idea of catching on fire is bad enough. But we are in red flag warnings and with where i was, no doubt a car fire would have spread to the brush. Then with my house only 2-3 miles down wind as the crow flies. I just was not game for that gamble.



Much easier it was to disconnect the line from the output of the pump and slip some fuel hose on it and run it into a container. When key was turned on pump ran a couple seconds, seamed like good flow but not forceful. Hooked output line back up and disconnected the return line and set it in a container. When key was turned on there was a little flow, but not as much as right from the out let.

So i went back intk town and ordered a fuel pump and picked up a "free rental" fuel pressure tester. I'll head down to the rig in the morning to test output of the pump. Hopefully i will be able to confirm the pump is bad and can head jnto town to pick up the new pump assembly that should be in around 10am.

This isnt my first rodeo, based on the timing belt is intact and how it cranks over, i am 90% certain compression is fine.

Based on how clean and even the spark is. I am 90% certain the ignition is doing its thing.

So even with out a dangerous redneck fuel test i am very confident the issue lies in fuel delivery. If, as you said. It would start and run even with a failed "open" pressure regulator. That really points at the pump. Since the pump runs at all. It cant be a saftey cut off. There is the possibility of dome wierd electrical/computer issue that is not allowing fuel delivery. I hope that is not it.
I will see what the morning brings. Fingrrs X'd
 

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Dangerous redneck fuel test.... never heard of starting fluid? :icon_confused:
 

RonD

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You can use power brake vacuum hose to safely add liquid fuel manually to intake, then put it back on


In any case it does read like fuel is the issue
 

Gypsy Freedom

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Dangerous redneck fuel test.... never heard of starting fluid? :icon_confused:



Heard of it plenty. Also seen plenty of damage from it. Both internal damage to pistons, rings, head gasgets and such. Also external, from intake components blown out from a back fire through intack and fire. Not a big fan of it. I personally wont use it. No need for it. Sure, ive used it/seen it used in my mis guided youth. Also seen plenty of things go south in a hurry. Just because "you may have never had an issue" does not make it safe or wise. I personally consider it's use red neck/lazy/mickey mouse/insert your own. Plenty of other safer diagnostic options.
As it turns out, upon testing the pump this morning. Max pressure from the deadheaded pump was less than 1psig. The use of ether starting fluid would not have help or saved any time. Just like in math, if you already know 2 of the 3 parts of an equation, you can figure the third. I already knew, with high probability the issue was fuel related.
Even had i used ether to see if it would light. I would have had to continue on with the testing. I have also seen times where and engine will fire with erher yet not on the fuel in the tank. Seen that happen with bad/contaminated fuel, bad/fouled plugs, bad wires/cap/rotor, among other things. I gave up on the lazy red neck methods a long time ago and have never missed them. I will stick with proper, safe testing methods that isolate and pinpoint a specific problem. With 13.5 volts at the pump while pump is running and still less than 1psig i am confident the pump is toast or is plugged. Either way, it had to come out.
Upon removal, (which is easy, aside from cleaning all the dirt away so it does not fall in the tank) the intake screan does not appear plugged and i am in town at the parts store waiting for the new pump to be delivered.
Now, the new pump "may not" solve the problem. But with the tests i did. It proved the pump was bad and needed replacing. Could not have done that with ether alone.
I have personally seen a guy drop a tank and replace a pump (to no avail) just because he had no pressure at the fuel rail and could not hear the pump cycle on at key on, yet it would light with ether. When i came intko the situation, he was convinced the parts store sold him a bad pump. He was ready to drop the tank again and drive 45 min back into town from the camp to get anther pump. I asked if he had confirmed power at the pump. Answer no. I asked if he had applied power to the pump to test it. Answer no. I helped "bench" test the pump with a couple coffee cans, some fuel hose and a battery. Pump sprayed fuel out like a fire hose. I suggested it might not be a "bad pump" and that he should probably be doing other diagnostics before condeming a new pump. Just one of many times i have seen the misinterpreted use of ether waste more time and money because they were too lazy or did not have the knowledge to do proper testing. If that is not the definition of "red neck" i dont know what is.

You can use power brake vacuum hose to safely add liquid fuel manually to intake, then put it back on


In any case it does read like fuel is the issue
That may be a safer place, but i have seen similar application have problems when engine backfired through intake igniting fuel residue in the hose. Ive seen ruptured lines and diaphrams and i have seen ignited fuel sprayed out.

Also, as i said easy and safe with the time and tools i had. I did not have loose fuel, and i did not have a simple safe effective way to pour raw fuel into the tiny opening of a booster vacuume line.

And even if i had, that would not have narrowed it down beyond where i already was. It would not have save any time or money. So why play around with raw fuel in an eviroment rich in sources of ignition. Other than just to have some red neck fun.

Far wiser to learn how to do proper diagnosis and trouble shooting
 

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Just realize that your '85 will have two fuel pumps, one low pressure pump in the tank and one high pressure in the frame rail just behind the fuel filter if memory serves.

Starting fluid on a spark ignited engine if used sparingly isn't a waste of time completely (and not near as dangerous as on a diesel), it can isolate other issues like if you had spark at the right time or not if say the timing belt skipped a tooth, but cranking sounds goofy with the belt off a tooth... This saves time... Everything on an '85 is driven off the rpm pickup in the distributor driven by the auxiliary shaft so having spark at all means you have a timing belt present (no so much on a DIS engine) and usually that the TFI module is functioning.
 

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I don't know why someone who knows everything is asking for help in the first place. :dunno:
 

Gypsy Freedom

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I don't know why someone who knows everything is asking for help in the first place. :dunno:
I dont know everything, or i wouldnt be here looking for input. Thank you for your useful and on topic comentary...
I do know how to test for spark, compression and fuel. I tried to simply explain in my first post that i had good spark and compression and things pointed to a lack of fuel. This rig is new to me and is an old beater. I came here looking for insight from ranger people. But istead i get chastized because i do not like to mess around with highly volitile fuels while stuck on the side of the road with minimal tools. My choice to play it safe should not be attacked. There is nothing that can be learned from the use of ether or other volitile fluids that can not be learned through other technical tests.


Now i just see scotts90ranger posted something about a second fuel pump. This is the first i have heard of this. None of the 3 parts stores i visited mentioned this possibility. None of them had and shop manuals in stock for this vintage ranger. So This is the kind of info i was looking for when i posted here.

This could make sense. The replaced intank pump did not solve the problem. Truck tried to start got it to idle a few times but still not getting fuel. Could not see any gauge pressure at the fuel rail and the intank pump maxed out at 5-6psig even with a secondary ground wire to rule out a bad ground path.

This second pump possibility is the first thing that kinda makes sense(short of getting a bad pump right out of the box, sure it happens, but not normally). I will check it out.

Thank you to scotts90ranger
 

RonD

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You are being a little thin skinned about any comments

Your idea of safety is yours, no one was chastising you for it, comments were on your level of safety

"There would be no car accidents if no one drove cars, so the safest thing is for no one to drive cars"
This is a level of safety and can not be argued, but we can chose to dial back the level of safety a bit and drive cars, but be aware of the dangers in this UNSAFE choice

Yes, when fuel injection was added Ford Rangers a second fuel pump in the frame rail next to the fuel filter was added
This is the high pressure pump is used to get the 30-40psi used in 1997 and earlier Rangers, 1998 and up used 55-65psi

This second pump was powered by splicing into the existing in-tanks 12volt wire, in the frame rail, and this splice point has been known to corrode and fail, and of course the high pressure pump can fail as well


As far as the 50/50 test, its been used since 1872 when George Brayton invented the first commercial liquid-fuelled internal combustion engine
Instantly tells you if fuel, spark or compression is the issue
And yes you can do it wrong and cause problems, but a pillow, would be considered a pretty safe device to use daily, but it can be used to suffocate someone or silence a gunshot, but I still have one around and use it daily, well nightly mostly, :)
 
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Dirtman

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I love you all. Im sorry if my comments came of as rude or condescending. I didn't realize you were new when I posted that. Almost every diagnostic question posed to the members here starts with what RonD calls the 50/50 test. Which is see if itll try to start with starting fluid, or anything flammable on hand. It rules out a spark issue instantly so we can move on to more specific things. Most of us have done this hundreds of times so its just second nature to us and to be honest odd someone wouldn't try it. If your uncomfortable with it no problem and im sorry. :icon_thumby:

I can be a sarcastic asshat but I promise im a nice person lol.
 
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