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Run on water and gas


Jason

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I appreciate that you have gone through the trouble to look things up and present a decent argument for your side of this debate. What bothers me is the repeated assertion that someone is "creating" or "transferring" energy. Nothing is being made in this process, it is only being brought from the water to the engine.

If we followed your logic then no car would run because the fuel pump and injector circuits would overrun the cars electrical system, rendering it undriveable. All these hydrogen converters do is "pump" the hydrogen and oxygen out of the water via an electrical current that separates the molecule, (not the atom as in nuclear fission) and requires very little energy. The process as i have seen with my own eyes for an outdoor lantern is more finesse than force. You need the proper current and pulse and it's working as long as it is built correctly.



Putting additional load on the electrical system most definitely puts additional load on the engine. Your alternator is a reverse electric motor. When you draw more electricity, the alternator is harder to turn, which makes the engine work harder, which burns more fuel, obviously.


Remember, the Second Law of Thermodynamics? It hasn't been repealed. You can change one form of energy to another, but you can never achieve 100% efficiency.


The introduction of water into the fuel mix MAY increase the amount of energy that is extractable from the gasoline through chemical and/or physical interaction with the fuel air mixture.

You 'might' idle, but not enough power to drive let alone tow!

In other words: No one is selling or showing off these things has actually used it in a car? If they had, then we would actually see them starting and driving a car with one of these. They would certainly be putting those videos up.
And so far, I have not seen even one.
 


OilPatch197

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So can you get more energy out of pumping the solution to the engine than the equivalent power consumption to run the water/gas system? Like you said it needs to be set right.

It has to be to make your car more efficient. Also figuring in how *much* of a gain the water will make, if nominal then take out the power losses of the water/gas system.... will it even be worth the conversion?


If we followed your logic then no car would run because the fuel pump and injector circuits would overrun the cars electrical system, rendering it undriveable.
The volatility of Gasoline contains somewhere around 131 megajoules per gallon. You can have a very inefficient engine, and it will still run. It has high energy content.

Therefore if in mix in the water/gas system, the question is can you get your system efficient enough to cancel out the increased inefficientcies(increased alternator drag)

Maybe I am nit picking, Yeah perhaps.

Again I would have to see a "homebrew" job to believe it. Whoever does this, post a video on utube! I would like to see it start and drive it off.
 
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James Denton

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When I get the CD on this-----You can count on me putting 3 on I'm going too put it on 3 diffence ones -1 on carb engine ---2 on fuel injection-3 on a diesel------I start with 1,2 then 3----I will let you all know how it goes
 

94STXRanger

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I never did read the whole article presented but have seen others, and the ones i have seen use the small watar container and seperate the hydrogen and introduce it to the system. Thats what some ladies husband did at my work on his integra. Im not sure what kind of wattage it takes for the electrolysis, but i would think that getting the fuel to burn more completely and getting ten more miles per gallon has to be an improvement.
 

donlightbody

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I was curious about the complexity of making the generator, and I made one today just from crap in my workshop. PVS, 2 bolts, nuts, washers and some sheet metal. hooked it up to a battery and it was making hydrogen alright. made quite a bit and this was not from good parts either. if anyone is really interested in this stuff look on youtube, there is alot there.
 

samsonitesamsonite

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I was very skeptical about this too, I have done TONS of research, and helped a friend put it on his mustang, we are now building a system for my YJ, and my wifes car. The minimum gain that I saw was a 20% increase in mileage, Not only that, it has more pep and runs quieter. After some fine tuning he is getting between 30% and 40% increases in mileage.

I was sure it was just another snake oil scam at first, but I wanted to try it out for myself. It works.
 

BigClemsonFan

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I was very skeptical about this too, I have done TONS of research, and helped a friend put it on his mustang, we are now building a system for my YJ, and my wifes car. The minimum gain that I saw was a 20% increase in mileage, Not only that, it has more pep and runs quieter. After some fine tuning he is getting between 30% and 40% increases in mileage.

I was sure it was just another snake oil scam at first, but I wanted to try it out for myself. It works.
How difficult was it to install? Total cost of the install?
 

samsonitesamsonite

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including the book which was $50... it was about $160, but you can spend as much as you want on them, the more you spend the better it looks.... Install was not hard, ill find a site for you hold on...


edit.... here

I also have the water4gas book in PDF format if anyone wants a copy.
 
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94STXRanger

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I was very skeptical about this too, I have done TONS of research, and helped a friend put it on his mustang, we are now building a system for my YJ, and my wifes car. The minimum gain that I saw was a 20% increase in mileage, Not only that, it has more pep and runs quieter. After some fine tuning he is getting between 30% and 40% increases in mileage.

I was sure it was just another snake oil scam at first, but I wanted to try it out for myself. It works.
Now oilpatch how is that ^ a net loss?
 

IcecreamLtDan

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I also have the water4gas book in PDF format if anyone wants a copy.
I'd be interested in a copy. I'm interested in maybe trying this on my old ranger. It's not a daily driver anymore and I could certainly experiment with it on this.
 

Loanranger

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There's alot of posts on this subject, but has anybody thought of the two things that might make this work? The first being the most obvious, making it a duel fuel system running gas (or alcohol) AND the hydrogen? The secong being less obvious, but being right in tune with current technology, and that is to use the battery and charging system of a hybrid, therefore generating power while braking? This would relieve some of the stress from the alternator, making it a more efficient means of creating hydrogen.
 

AllanD

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Wouldnt the alternator be producing the same amount of electricity as it did before? only differing as the speed of the engine changes? The electricity is mad in the alternator whether its used or not, at some point the regulator just stops letting the voltage to the battery raise. So The electricity would already be there.

And as i understood it the hydrogen only assists in making a more complete burn of the gasoline. Having that set up on there doesnt seem like it would be much different than having off road lights on or something similar. But thats just my thinking and im no scientist.
1)Gasoline is MOSTLY hydrogen already, Look up the word HYDRO-carbon.

2)The alternator is NOT "making the electricity anyway".
It only makes what is REQUIRED to maintain the set voltage level.
ANY increase on load pulls the voltage down and the regulator
turns it back up.

Even turning on a light bulb draws power, that power MUST come from somewhere.

Do you believe in perpetual motion?
You put the water in the intake through an injector not mix it with the fuel otherwise it won't burn/ignite. The water will turn into a vapor and expand in the cylinder when the gas is ignited, water in gas form expands alot so it will force the piston down fastercause it expands more then the regular gas. That is where the power is gained and your gas mileage will go up. WWII planes did this at take off and stuff.
Actually water injection depends on two things to make an engine "more efficient" (and yes it works)

First it acts as an anti detnonant because the energy that propagates the shock wave is instead spent heating the water molecules.
Water has an incredible coefficient of expansion when it's heated
into steam, so a small ammount of INTENTIONALLY introduced water "helps" the engine. (It also tends to strip carbon deposits out of the combustion chambers)

If you REALLY think about it your GASOLINE engine is REALLY powered bt "steam" anyway
As you burn HYDROcarbons there is hydrogen in the gasoline
which burns into water, the Carbon (ideally) burns to CO2
the heat generated heats the 70odd percent of nitrogen in the air and that expands too. But the expansion of highly heated water gas (steam) is the real "muscle" pushing the pistons which turns the wheels...

using a pulse width modulator you can control how much current the generator draws. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfc_6Xx-SGQ&feature=related

also different designs and water mixtures draw different amounts. search for "hydrogen booster" on youtube for ALOT of info in this stuff. one reason it often apears not to work is because the O2 sensor is picking up on all that O in the exhaust and wants to richen the mixture. I've heard of some people removong th 02 sensor from the loop when the gen is on and found a vid of one guy who is intercepting and controling the O2 sensor's signal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzlGD6b1RW0
Also, someone on youtube w a BII 2.9 found to hook up the hydrogen line to the vacuum input in the back of the plenum instead of befor the throttlebody, thereby bypassing the engine control sensors. I think it works if you figure out all the tricks to it.
Excuses. it doesn't work because it doesn't work, NOT because the oxygen sensor is detecting surplus oxygen.
Mixture is simply adjusted like it would be at lower altitude.and LOAD has far more to do with mileage than mixture does anyway.

You cannot produce enough hydrogen to matter with a 12V alternator. to pack around the equivelent energy of a gallon of gasoline in LIQUID hydrogen would take several gallons
Several gallons of liquid hydrogen in GAS form would fill an average sized house

If we followed your logic then no car would run because the fuel pump and injector circuits would overrun the cars electrical system, rendering it undriveable. All these hydrogen converters do is "pump" the hydrogen and oxygen out of the water via an electrical current that separates the molecule, (not the atom as in nuclear fission) and requires very little energy. The process as i have seen with my own eyes for an outdoor lantern is more finesse than force. You need the proper current and pulse and it's working as long as it is built correctly.
a fuel pump draws a few amps and MOVES and energetic fuel from it's storage tank into the injection rail.
At the injection rail the fuel pressure regulator DUMPS most of this fuel back to the tank via the return line

the TINY ammount of fuel actually injected into the engine produces ENORMOUS energy and most of the combustion product is either WATER (the HYDROGEN from the hydrocarbon fuel)
and Carbon Dioxide (if combustion is complete) and Carbon Monoxide (if it isn't)

The energy released is quite large.

What everyone who believes in these "snake oil devices" is FAILING to pay attention to is that in the original creation of the water enormous energy was released, even ignoring efficiencies ALL of that energy (and then some) must be put back in to split those molecules apart into hydrogen and oxygen.
and all you can hope to get back is the energy released by combusting Hydrogen with oxygen.

THAT is the simple reality.

Stupidity pisses me off and this whole topic is stupid.
and even though arguing with a retard on the internet is like winning a race in the special olympics (you might win but you are still retarded) I'm still arguing against you because stupidity has been shown to be contagious among the ignorant.

It is my JOB to erase ignorance whenever I can.

Anyone not with me in this fight is against me.
 
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Jason

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How about this. Instead of having a bunch of google geniuses, why doesn't someone pony up the cash and prove if it works or not. Someone here must have a pre-OBDII truck to test it on for the group. Don;t tell us about a friend that did it, show us some video of it running in a truck or car.
 

Loanranger

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How about this. Instead of having a bunch of google geniuses, why doesn't someone pony up the cash and prove if it works or not. Someone here must have a pre-OBDII truck to test it on for the group. Don;t tell us about a friend that did it, show us some video of it running in a truck or car.
How about this? Go for it! :icon_idea: If you haven't noticed, this is a forum for discussing ideas, which is exactly what is happening. People with the enginuity to make something like this happen aren't sitting here on the computer discussing whether it can be done or not, they are out proving it can be done. I am not saying it can or can't be done, but nobody is going to go out and do it, just to show a few people on TRS that it can be done.


Think about how many FACTS have been disproven by people who don't listen to everybody saying "it can't be done". Think about where we would be today if the great inventors of the past had listened to all the nay sayers and given up. To all the people willing to learn all they can, and sort the truth from the lies. :pray:

And to all the folks who sit on here and tell everyone it can't be done, without actually trying for themselves. :thefinger:
 

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