Missed opportunity.

[91stranger]

Your argument was made null and void when you listed the Spark as something GM should be proud of.
And although I don't want to rehash this stuff again, they don't sell cheap stuff becasue they don't make any profit on it.

Say what you will about the chevy spark but a brand new car with zero miles for under 14k, ford can't touch that.... Ford can't even come close to that. I never said it was the best, I was just making a point about them having more options than ford. I think Ford is dumb to not be marketing in the "cheap new" auto world.... Think about it.... If you had 15k to spend on a car and you go out car shopping (with no favorite brands in mind) and look at the prices between new and used. Now look at the price of a brand new spark (with warranty) and compare that to a 2-3 year old fusion.... It would probably be cheaper to buy the spark with a factory warranty compared to the used ford with who knows how many miles/history. 9/10 would probably buy the spark.. Also, just because we don't like the chevy spark doesn't mean it's not selling.

 

[Ranger850]

I have come to expect very little from the BIG 3 when it come to what we want/need versus what they say we want/need. It's like @stmitch says. they aint gonna make it if they don't make money off of it. So we get cheap cars with expensive tech and we have to pay for all the R&D.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Say what you will about the chevy spark but a brand new car with zero miles for under 14k, ford can't touch that.... Ford can't even come close to that. I never said it was the best, I was just making a point about them having more options than ford. I think Ford is dumb to not be marketing in the "cheap new" auto world.... Think about it.... If you had 15k to spend on a car and you go out car shopping (with no favorite brands in mind) and look at the prices between new and used. Now look at the price of a brand new spark (with warranty) and compare that to a 2-3 year old fusion.... It would probably be cheaper to buy the spark with a factory warranty compared to the used ford with who knows how many miles/history. 9/10 would probably buy the spark.. Also, just because we don't like the chevy spark doesn't mean it's not selling.

Not hard to figure out how many miles the Ford would have, they have a little counter thing on the dash.

Personally if I was going to drive something the size of my lawn mower I would just drive my lawn mower.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

There is only one thing a person need know about cars:

Hemi.

 

[97RangerXLT]

GM cars.... where to start... for the most part I have owned GM cars with an occasional Dodge (2 occasions) and the only Ford's that I have owned are my Ranger, my Wife's 2015 Escape and a 1987 Mercury Grand Marquis that at the time was 12 years old, had 125k or maybe 225k on it when I bought it, burned oil that leaked like a sieve from the valve seals but was otherwise a good solid car. it replaced a 1996 Monte Carlo that I bought brand new in early 96. that worn out 12 year old Merc was a better car than the 3.5 year old Monte Carlo was at 80k miles and I got rid of a car payment to boot. (baby on the way) The Monte Carlo had numerous trim and fitment issues and the transmission was replaced under warranty at 22k. it was the second biggest pile of crap that I ever owned, and up until I bought the brand new 2009 Dodge Charger in 09, it was the biggest pile of crap. Dodge made me rethink the definition of pile of crap. the 1994 Pontiac Grand Prix that my ex wife had was number 3 in terms of biggest pile of crap. it was an electrical failure on wheels, when she left and took it with her, I was glad to see both go. Now the two full size oldsmobiles that I had, a 1988 and a 1994 Olds 88, those were great cars, both had near 200k miles on them when I sold them and ran great, looked great. the 1986 Olds Cutlass Ciera with the 2.5 liter 4 cylinder was a great car too, but didn't last long, because at the time I was living at home (HS and early college) and shared it with my mom who used it on a rural mail route, so it was beat to an early death. My current 2009 Buick Lucerne is a blah car. no real problems with it in the three years that I have owned it, but it is uninspiring, low powered bogged down turd. gets horrible gas mileage too. I figured it would be similar to my 1994 Olds... Nope. it does have a better ride tho...

AJ

 

[stmitch]

Say what you will about the chevy spark but a brand new car with zero miles for under 14k, ford can't touch that.... Ford can't even come close to that. I never said it was the best, I was just making a point about them having more options than ford.

Have you shopped for any cheap Fords recently?
There are currently over 1000 brand new Fiestas on Autotrader for under $15k. I even count 60 under $10k:

Autotrader - page unavailable

www.autotrader.com

There are also 25 New Focuses under $15k, including a few under $13k:

Autotrader - page unavailable

www.autotrader.com

I think Ford is dumb to not be marketing in the "cheap new" auto world....

Again, selling cheap vehicles doesn't make them money. They can't survive without making money. These companies don't exist to sell something to every single segment of the market, they exist to make money. The average new vehicle sold is over $37k these days. Nobody caters to the $15k new vehicle market because there's no money to be made there. Sales don't equal profit. The other thing is that it used to be small cars were the only ones that were capable of good fuel economy, so people that cared about that were forced to buy little penalty boxes. Now, mid size sedans get 40mpg, and hybrids are getting 50+mpg. The biggest advantage of the sub compacts is essentially gone, so customers have abandoned them.

Think about it.... If you had 15k to spend on a car and you go out car shopping (with no favorite brands in mind) and look at the prices between new and used. Now look at the price of a brand new spark (with warranty) and compare that to a 2-3 year old fusion.... It would probably be cheaper to buy the spark with a factory warranty compared to the used ford with who knows how many miles/history. 9/10 would probably buy the spark..

I was actually in that exact situation recently. I had a very similar budget when car shopping 18 months ago. I got a 2 year old Fusion with 23k miles for $16k. Original sticker was over $37k. It has leather, heated seats, and much more space/comfort/sound deadening/etc than a small car that sells for $15k new. It has tons of warranty left, it's 5 star safety rated (which the sub compacts are not), and my lifetime fuel economy is currently 85.5mpg which embarasses the small hatches.

Also, just because we don't like the chevy spark doesn't mean it's not selling.

GM sold just over 23k Sparks in all of 2018:

GCBC

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

carsalesbase.com

Ford sold over 51k Fiestas in 2018:

ford-fiesta

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

carsalesbase.com

 

[Ranger850]

Have you shopped for any cheap Fords recently?
There are currently over 1000 brand new Fiestas on Autotrader for under $15k. I even count 60 under $10k:

Autotrader - page unavailable

www.autotrader.com

There are also 25 New Focuses under $15k, including a few under $13k:

Autotrader - page unavailable

www.autotrader.com

Again, selling cheap vehicles doesn't make them money. They can't survive without making money. These companies don't exist to sell something to every single segment of the market, they exist to make money. The average new vehicle sold is over $37k these days. Nobody caters to the $15k new vehicle market because there's no money to be made there. Sales don't equal profit. The other thing is that it used to be small cars were the only ones that were capable of good fuel economy, so people that cared about that were forced to buy little penalty boxes. Now, mid size sedans get 40mpg, and hybrids are getting 50+mpg. The biggest advantage of the sub compacts is essentially gone, so customers have abandoned them.



I was actually in that exact situation recently. I had a very similar budget when car shopping 18 months ago. I got a 2 year old Fusion with 23k miles for $16k. Original sticker was over $37k. It has leather, heated seats, and much more space/comfort/sound deadening/etc than a small car that sells for $15k new. It has tons of warranty left, it's 5 star safety rated (which the sub compacts are not), and my lifetime fuel economy is currently 85.5mpg which embarasses the small hatches.



GM sold just over 23k Sparks in all of 2018:

GCBC

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

carsalesbase.com

Ford sold over 51k Fiestas in 2018:

ford-fiesta

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

carsalesbase.com

The problem with any of this ^^^^, is Ford has abandoned the Fiesta, and Fusion, and in a year they will have 0 sales in these segments (new cars), while Chevy, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and Dodge all still have cars for sale.

 

[Dirtman]

Also the transmission sucks donkey balls...

 

[91stranger]

Ok so no one wants a small car just like no one wants a small truck?? If no one wanted small cars then they wouldn't be selling them all together, however, when small, cheap cars are selling then they are gonna keep making them. It doesn't matter if the car is cheap, what matters is how much profit you make from that one sale. If they can make a profit on a 15k car then they probably have less than half that in it. Profit is profit, plain and simple. Why would anyone want a half ton truck that gets terrible gas mileage, can't tow half it's own weight and can barely fit a normal sized family (rangers) but yet they sold like hot cakes back in the day. Your point of saying people don't want small cars is obsolete at this point because they are still selling whether you like it or not. Toyota and Honda cars aren't cheap because everyone knows they are worth their weight in repairs since they hardly have any engine/drivetrain issues and is mostly just maintenance. Hard to beat Japanese tech and you know it. They are about 10-15 years ahead of us technologically.

 

[stmitch]

The problem with any of this ^^^^, is Ford has abandoned the Fiesta, and Fusion, and in a year they will have 0 sales in these segments (new cars), while Chevy, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and Dodge all still have cars for sale.

Chevy (GM) has mostly gotten out of the passenger car game too. Dodge cancelled their small and midsize cars before anybody else back in 2016.

Having sales doesn't matter if you're not making any money on what you sell. Ford decided that they weren't making enough profit to keep producing their cars. Other manufacturers have taken similar steps. Even Toyota has pared down their car offerings. Everything is shifting to CUVs. Ford just made a more drastic cut than others. Time will tell if that was the right move or not. But if they weren't making enough money on their cars, then why should they keep making them?

 

[91stranger]

My point is about having options... Right now Ford has 2 options which are polar opposites.... Ones a 2 door, balls to the wall sports car and the other is a ugly car, which doesn't give people much room for options. Why doesn't ford just go off the deep end and just sell f-150's and mustangs. That's their best sellers right? so why not ONLY make and sell those? It's good for a manufacture to have options and ford clearly doesn't grasp much... They thought an emoji was a big deal.... I'm really losing faith in Ford and what it has become.

 

[stmitch]

Ok so no one wants a small car just like no one wants a small truck?? If no one wanted small cars then they wouldn't be selling them all together, however, when small, cheap cars are selling then they are gonna keep making them.

But are small, cheap cars selling? Like in any meaningful numbers? GM sold fewer Sparks in all of 2018 than Toyota sells Camrys in a month:

Toyota Camry Sales Figures

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

www.goodcarbadcar.net

And if you look at the trends, Camry sales are down 22% since 2015 (following the trend of all sedan sales).

It doesn't matter if the car is cheap, what matters is how much profit you make from that one sale. If they can make a profit on a 15k car then they probably have less than half that in it. Profit is profit, plain and simple.

If you can make profit on small cars, but you can make more profit on other things, why waste time on the small cars? There are huge fixed costs in vehicle manufacturing. Materials. The amount of metal in a base model Fiesta and a Platinum trim Fiesta is the same. Engineering. The engineering costs for the general structure, powertrains, etc of a vehicle are shared for all versions of that vehicle. Labor is a huge cost in a vehicle too, especially for domestic makers that pay assembly workers high UAW wages and benefits.
If you want to maximize profit, then you sell the most profitable versions of the most profitable vehicles that you can. It takes roughly the same amount of labor to build a base model F150 as a loaded, Limited trim truck. But that base F150 might make them 7% profit on a $25k truck, for a total of something like $1750, while the Limited trim makes them 10% profit on a $70k truck for a total profit of $7000. You can make money at the bottom, but it pales in comparison to other options. The examples above consider profitability of different trims within a model, but the same thing can be done with comparing different models. If you make $1500 profit on a low trim Fiesta, and you make $1800 on a low trim EcoSport (which is really just a lifted Fiesta), then you push the vehicle that makes you more money.

Why would anyone want a half ton truck that gets terrible gas mileage, can't tow half it's own weight and can barely fit a normal sized family (rangers) but yet they sold like hot cakes back in the day.

Markets change. Customer expectations, government standards, the people in society that have the money and need to buy, etc all change over time. I see a ton more half ton trucks than new mid size trucks, because the half ton trucks have gotten so good that the benefits of a small truck aren't as significant. For pretty much the same money, you can get a vehicle that's more capable, nearly as fuel efficient, etc.

Your point of saying people don't want small cars is obsolete at this point because they are still selling whether you like it or not.

See point 1. They're not really selling well relative to any other market segment. And ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think or want. The automakers are going to do what's in their best interest not what's in yours or mine.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Toyota and Honda cars aren't cheap because everyone knows they are worth their weight in repairs since they hardly have any engine/drivetrain issues and is mostly just maintenance. Hard to beat Japanese tech and you know it. They are about 10-15 years ahead of us technologically.

Behind actually.

Reliability is easier when you are not pushing the envelope and just keep regurgitating similar product.

Heck, they didn't even have power seats in the Tacoma until Ford brought the Ranger back (welcome to the 90's?)

 

[Ranger850]

It's simple math @stmitch, If you produce less cars, you sell less cars, if you make more CUV/SUV's, you sell more. "Supply and demand" has ben replaced with "Supply". If you make only expensive products and very few inexpensive options, then your #'s show that the expensive stuff out sells the cheaper stuff. So ford says, we cant sell these cheap sedans at a profit, so all we're gonna sale is the upscaled expensive models. Then the numbers say" Look how well these expensive models we are selling! We should sale more of these and NOT the inexpensive one." so dealers only order the well equipped, expensive models and sale numbers on the cheaper one go down, and the cycle continues.

 

[97RangerXLT]

But are small, cheap cars selling? Like in any meaningful numbers? GM sold fewer Sparks in all of 2018 than Toyota sells Camrys in a month:

Toyota Camry Sales Figures

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

www.goodcarbadcar.net

And if you look at the trends, Camry sales are down 22% since 2015 (following the trend of all sedan sales).



If you can make profit on small cars, but you can make more profit on other things, why waste time on the small cars? There are huge fixed costs in vehicle manufacturing. Materials. The amount of metal in a base model Fiesta and a Platinum trim Fiesta is the same. Engineering. The engineering costs for the general structure, powertrains, etc of a vehicle are shared for all versions of that vehicle. Labor is a huge cost in a vehicle too, especially for domestic makers that pay assembly workers high UAW wages and benefits.
If you want to maximize profit, then you sell the most profitable versions of the most profitable vehicles that you can. It takes roughly the same amount of labor to build a base model F150 as a loaded, Limited trim truck. But that base F150 might make them 7% profit on a $25k truck, for a total of something like $1750, while the Limited trim makes them 10% profit on a $70k truck for a total profit of $7000. You can make money at the bottom, but it pales in comparison to other options. The examples above consider profitability of different trims within a model, but the same thing can be done with comparing different models. If you make $1500 profit on a low trim Fiesta, and you make $1800 on a low trim EcoSport (which is really just a lifted Fiesta), then you push the vehicle that makes you more money.



Markets change. Customer expectations, government standards, the people in society that have the money and need to buy, etc all change over time. I see a ton more half ton trucks than new mid size trucks, because the half ton trucks have gotten so good that the benefits of a small truck aren't as significant. For pretty much the same money, you can get a vehicle that's more capable, nearly as fuel efficient, etc.



See point 1. They're not really selling well relative to any other market segment. And ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think or want. The automakers are going to do what's in their best interest not what's in yours or mine.

Actually comparing a Camry to a Spark is like comparing a Fusion to a Festiva. the Camry is a direct competitor to a Fusion in size and market segment. Even the Corolla is a much bigger car than the Spark. Not sure what Toyota has to compete with the spark, I don't think that they still make the Echo.

Tech wise Most Toyota's are behind Ford, as Toyota generally focuses on little improvements over time (Kai-zen) and for the most part has molded the Camry/ Corolla/ Tacoma/ Tundra into a better version than what it was the previous year. This is what really cemented Toyota and Honda into what they are today, especially in the 70's and 80's when the Big Three put out whatever the hell they wanted and to hell with the consumers. The consumers saw this and flocked over to Honda and Toyota in droves.

It has taken another 15 to 20 years, but I think now that Ford and GM are probably on par with the quality of Toyota and Honda in the late 2000's. Dodge has yet to peak on this, they are probably (hit or miss) still in the late 80s/ mid 90's level of quality, at least as their 2009 line up is concerned. (have not sampled a modern Dodge yet, my 2009 Charger was enough aggravation for me to last a decade)

And with all of that, none of the Big Three could make a small car that was worth the scrap metal price that went into it. compare an escort to a corolla, a chevette to a corolla, a horizon/ omni to a corolla... then newer cars, you saw that the big three started partnering with Toyota/ Isuzu/ Mitsubishi. for the most part, those small cars made by Toyota and Isuzu weren't too bad, but they even looked like a rebadged Toyota or Isuzu. the Mitsubishi rebrands (mostly chrysler/ Dodge) were as big of a hit or miss on quality as Dodge/ Chrysler was.

I think that Ford still has money to be made by keeping hte Fusion, not sure about the Festiva or Focus. I think GM has has money to be made in keeping the Impala, Buick LaCrosse but the Cruz/ Malibu have no chance against a Corolla or Civic. none. Dodge has already got rid of their small/ mid size as they were turds from the factory and they realized they had no chance. it is a shame really, Dodge had some really nice innovations and ideas. But like the French Revolution, FCA's ideas were awesome, the executions were horrible.

Going forward, I think you will see the trend toward crossover suv's continue, then when Honda and Toyota are the only ones putting out small and mid size cars and making some money at it, the Big Three (or Big Two if FCA dies...) executives will look at it and say "hey, why aren't we putting out small and mid size cars? we can make some money!" Does that remind you of what Ford and GM did with the Ranger and Colorado/ Canyon?

AJ