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Manual locking hub diameter/size?


alwaysFlOoReD

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Do you have wheel spacers? Running lug nuts with that little of thread engagement would worry me.
Good point, but...
If you look close the studs are all the way to the end of the threads. The portion that is exposed is not threaded.
 


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Good point, but...
If you look close the studs are all the way to the end of the threads. The portion that is exposed is not threaded.
The end of the studs are tapered for easier starting of the lug nuts just like bolts are. So, they should be poking past the threaded portion of the lug nuts by at least a couple threads for full strength engagement. His point does have validity to it. Is it weakened enough to matter? I supposed it depends on how the truck is used and driven. I wouldn't do it.
 

alwaysFlOoReD

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The end of the studs are tapered for easier starting of the lug nuts just like bolts are. So, they should be poking past the threaded portion of the lug nuts by at least a couple threads for full strength engagement. His point does have validity to it. Is it weakened enough to matter? I supposed it depends on how the truck is used and driven. I wouldn't do it.
Took another look. You're correct. I've no doubt in @4x4junkie abilities. Perhaps he could provide an explanation.
My knowledge is that thread engagement should be equal to or longer than the diameter of the shank.
 

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Good point, but...
If you look close the studs are all the way to the end of the threads. The portion that is exposed is not threaded.
Studs should go past the threaded portion, not just to the end.
 

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That's what my rear would look like with the same wheels and lug nuts. Factory studs in the Explorer axle. There is WAY more thread engagement there than it looks.

That said, the first time I put my 16" wheels on, I wondered if Ford spec'd different studs for ally vs steel wheels.
 

85_Ranger4x4

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That's what my rear would look like with the same wheels and lug nuts. Factory studs in the Explorer axle. There is WAY more thread engagement there than it looks.

That said, the first time I put my 16" wheels on, I wondered if Ford spec'd different studs for ally vs steel wheels.
The threads on the wheel studs show like a good inch of thread engagement.
 

don4331

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The nuts in question are very deep in order to work with the hub caps which @4x4junkie is using.

If he used regular lug nuts, the unthreaded portion of the studs would be sticking out past. (But then he wouldn't be able to install the hubcaps. :)
 

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Yes, everything is completely factory on that truck (the only thing changed are the locking hubs and cutting the centers out from the hub caps).
 

don4331

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The 5x4.5" lug pattern isn't the issue, it's the materials the hubs were made from.
My beef with the 5x4.5 pattern, using Dana 44 with 5x5.5 pattern as the good example:

From the bolt pattern, you need ~1" of material inside of the bolt holes to ensure adequate strength = 3.5" centre bore (more/less)
If you allow ~1/4" material for hub thickness that leaves ~3.0" for bearing - commericially available bearing Dana 44 uses outer location has 2.891" od. and has 1.625" id. (~1.25" delta)
This thickness of material allows splines to be cut into the hub - allowing the disconnect mechanism to be internal. And disconnect is relatively small part.
The original 19 spline outer stub axle, had 1.245" od. Meaning there was at least 3/16" of good 4140 steel all the way around the spindle.
This combination allow the inner and outer bearing to be properly spread apart.

But when you have 5x4.5 pattern and you subtact 1" material, you get 2.5" center bore on wheel.
If I allow 1/4" material for hub, you are down to 2.0" o.d. bearing.
And you can guess that a 2" od bearing is going to wind up with id way too small for a spindle which allow any size of axle.

Ford's solution was to mount the bearings side by each in the hub where they are too close together to have proper strength, so Ford has to increase spindle od on Dana 35 from that of Dana 44 to 1.781" - which results in corresponding od increase to (3.0625").
Then Ford needed the "hat" to fit the disconnect mechanism into.
The "hat" means that the rotor had to be cast into the hub - so if you damage the rotor, you have to replace both the hub and the rotor as they are a single part. Wear parts should be kept separate from rest.

If they had upgraded 4x4s to 5x5.0" (I know Chevrolet pattern), they could have had a Dana 44 style solution which would be stronger. I don't think they saved any money with the smaller pattern because of the "hat" isn't inexpensive. And a Dana 44 style solution would allow for larger tires.

Things even get worse in the IFS - the wheel mounting surface is cantilevered out from the bearing - hence the unit bearing is effectively a 4" od bearing.

Of course, some place in there fuel economy became significant driver = flush rims and cantilever mounts are ideal for mounting them.

There got it off my chest. :cool:
 

4x4junkie

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My beef with the 5x4.5 pattern, using Dana 44 with 5x5.5 pattern as the good example:

From the bolt pattern, you need ~1" of material inside of the bolt holes to ensure adequate strength = 3.5" centre bore (more/less)
If you allow ~1/4" material for hub thickness that leaves ~3.0" for bearing - commericially available bearing Dana 44 uses outer location has 2.891" od. and has 1.625" id. (~1.25" delta)
This thickness of material allows splines to be cut into the hub - allowing the disconnect mechanism to be internal. And disconnect is relatively small part.
The original 19 spline outer stub axle, had 1.245" od. Meaning there was at least 3/16" of good 4140 steel all the way around the spindle.
This combination allow the inner and outer bearing to be properly spread apart.

But when you have 5x4.5 pattern and you subtact 1" material, you get 2.5" center bore on wheel.
If I allow 1/4" material for hub, you are down to 2.0" o.d. bearing.
And you can guess that a 2" od bearing is going to wind up with id way too small for a spindle which allow any size of axle.

Ford's solution was to mount the bearings side by each in the hub where they are too close together to have proper strength, so Ford has to increase spindle od on Dana 35 from that of Dana 44 to 1.781" - which results in corresponding od increase to (3.0625").
Then Ford needed the "hat" to fit the disconnect mechanism into.
The "hat" means that the rotor had to be cast into the hub - so if you damage the rotor, you have to replace both the hub and the rotor as they are a single part. Wear parts should be kept separate from rest.

If they had upgraded 4x4s to 5x5.0" (I know Chevrolet pattern), they could have had a Dana 44 style solution which would be stronger. I don't think they saved any money with the smaller pattern because of the "hat" isn't inexpensive. And a Dana 44 style solution would allow for larger tires.

Things even get worse in the IFS - the wheel mounting surface is cantilevered out from the bearing - hence the unit bearing is effectively a 4" od bearing.

Of course, some place in there fuel economy became significant driver = flush rims and cantilever mounts are ideal for mounting them.

There got it off my chest. :cool:

Well, I don't know where your figures come from... Other than length, the TTB D35 & ½-ton D44 spindles are much more the same than they are different (they even use the same Timken SET-37 wheel bearing). I'll assume you've never used the #37780 locking hubs because if you had, they almost certainly would've solved the breakage issue you mentioned earlier with no change whatsoever in the lug pattern. I've no reason yet to believe the AVM 465XP hubs are any weaker (they're made of even heavier materials than Warn's were).
 

JoshT

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Well, I don't know where your figures come from... Other than length, the TTB D35 & ½-ton D44 spindles are much more the same than they are different (they even use the same Timken SET-37 wheel bearing). I'll assume you've never used the #37780 locking hubs because if you had, they almost certainly would've solved the breakage issue you mentioned earlier with no change whatsoever in the lug pattern. I've no reason yet to believe the AVM 465XP hubs are any weaker (they're made of even heavier materials than Warn's were).
That's what I was just sitting here thinking. The early (TTB) Dana 35 hubs aren't like the late (98-01 SLA Dana 35 hubs. I can only base on pictures for the early Dana 35, they aren't that much different from the ones on the Dana 44 in my 68 F-100. It's definitely different, but not that much so.
 

don4331

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We're talking past each outer - I'm talking failed bearings - which results in destroyed lockouts. And the solution to the bearing problem - Dana 44 knuckles & hubs*, solves the lockout issue.

Quoting 'Doc' from Back to the Future, I apologize for lack of detail, I only had couple hours this afternoon. Diagrams are made from parts I have kicking around my office.

Ranger Spindle/Hub-Rotor/'Hat"
Pale blue in center are the cutaway bearings. By quick measurement, the races are separated by 5mm.
Inner and outer bearings are LM603011 cup/LM603049 cone aka Set 37
1709779924220.png

You can see how the wheel mounting surface is outside both bearings.
A stronger 'hat' doesn't solve the issue of insufficient bearings (too close together, wheel cantilevered). And there is no way around that issue with 5x4.5" pattern.

F-150 Spindle/Hub/Puck (happens to be setup full time)
Again, pale blue is the bearings - in this case they are separated by 1-5/8".
Inner bearings are Set 37, while outer LM501349 race/LM501314 cone aka Set 45 (yes, my F-150 hubs had "Dana 28" bearing for outer)
1709780078056.png

The Dana 44 knuckle swap on TTB gains you stronger hubs (bigger tires), stronger lockout & brakes.

I'll do the full time IFS fronts tomorrow (have a simplified version), and I'll see if I can find my remaining Rugged Ridge lockout/bearing to do the other version.
 

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You can see how the wheel mounting surface is outside both bearings. A stronger 'hat' doesn't solve the issue of insufficient bearings (too close together, wheel cantilevered). And there is no way around that issue with 5x4.5" pattern.
That may be but but the heavier hub body actually helps in how they fail in the real world, hard use with locked differentials.

I can't say as I have ever heard of anyone breaking a hub because of a wheel bearing failure. Catching a hub on fire, yes. Getting towed home because of extremely hateful noises from wheel hub yes. Hub breaking apart... no. Especially a stock truck operating as Ford intended (sub 160hp, open front diff, smaller than 31" AT tires)

F-150 design is bigger because the truck is bigger. The fly in the ointment to that is a modern F-150 wheel bearing is more like the D35 with everything behind the mating surface, they get away with it by adjusting the wheel offset offset to play with how the bearings are loaded. TTB D44 F-150's had 0 offset so the mounting surface of the wheel was in the center of the wheel. Factory RBV wheels always had 3.75" backspace (with a more narrow wheel), my guess is to insure the wheel bearing is loaded more evenly inboard of the wheel mounting plane.
 

4x4junkie

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We're talking past each outer - I'm talking failed bearings - which results in destroyed lockouts. And the solution to the bearing problem - Dana 44 knuckles & hubs*, solves the lockout issue.

Quoting 'Doc' from Back to the Future, I apologize for lack of detail, I only had couple hours this afternoon. Diagrams are made from parts I have kicking around my office.

Ranger Spindle/Hub-Rotor/'Hat"
Pale blue in center are the cutaway bearings. By quick measurement, the races are separated by 5mm.
Inner and outer bearings are LM603011 cup/LM603049 cone aka Set 37
View attachment 107138
You can see how the wheel mounting surface is outside both bearings.
A stronger 'hat' doesn't solve the issue of insufficient bearings (too close together, wheel cantilevered). And there is no way around that issue with 5x4.5" pattern.

F-150 Spindle/Hub/Puck (happens to be setup full time)
Again, pale blue is the bearings - in this case they are separated by 1-5/8".
Inner bearings are Set 37, while outer LM501349 race/LM501314 cone aka Set 45 (yes, my F-150 hubs had "Dana 28" bearing for outer)
View attachment 107139
The Dana 44 knuckle swap on TTB gains you stronger hubs (bigger tires), stronger lockout & brakes.

I'll do the full time IFS fronts tomorrow (have a simplified version), and I'll see if I can find my remaining Rugged Ridge lockout/bearing to do the other version.
You're not telling me something I don't already know... The D35 wheel bearings are closer together than the D44's, yes. The WMS is outside of the bearing, yes. And absolutely yes there is a solution to that: Positive-offset wheels.
The factory RBV wheels had offsets of +12-19mm which puts the tire's contact patch close to right underneath the bearings (6" wide wheels had 3.75" backspacing, 7" wide wheels had 4.5" backspace).

None of that is why the D35 has an unusually-high rate of bearing failure (the D35's bearing design is actually quite robust, far more than it needed to be). Where the problem comes from is probably unexpected (I didn't make the connection myself until maybe 8-10 years ago): Aftermarket brake rotors that continue to be sold with pre-installed bearing races, but without matching cones to go with them. People (shop techs included) combine these parts on their own (often from differing countries of origin) then (not realizing why) wonder why they fail and blame it on whatever they can think of (or whatever it was they heard the last guy say, in the D35's case it's the spacing of the bearings). AFAIK, D44 wheel hubs are not sold with pre-installed races, so is why you don't see so many failed bearings on them (people are normally prompted to install both the cone and the race from a matched set since neither item pre-exists). Guaranteed if you mix races & cones on a D44, you're gonna see a similar rate of failure there too.

This is why I always tell anyone doing brake or wheel bearing work on these trucks to get rid of any pre-installed races and use both parts of a matched bearing set (perhaps the Brakes forum needs a Sticky on this). Practicing that myself, I've yet to have one fail (excepting from water intrusion once). And that's with heavy 35x12.50R15 mud tires on -12mm offset wheels (plenty of cantilever action going on there lol).

Nicely detailed diagrams, BTW :icon_thumby:
 

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You're not telling me something I don't already know... The D35 wheel bearings are closer together than the D44's, yes. The WMS is outside of the bearing, yes. And absolutely yes there is a solution to that: Positive-offset wheels.
The factory RBV wheels had offsets of +12-19mm which puts the tire's contact patch close to right underneath the bearings (6" wide wheels had 3.75" backspacing, 7" wide wheels had 4.5" backspace).

None of that is why the D35 has an unusually-high rate of bearing failure (the D35's bearing design is actually quite robust, far more than it needed to be). Where the problem comes from is probably unexpected (I didn't make the connection myself until maybe 8-10 years ago): Aftermarket brake rotors that continue to be sold with pre-installed bearing races, but without matching cones to go with them. People (shop techs included) combine these parts on their own (often from differing countries of origin) then (not realizing why) wonder why they fail and blame it on whatever they can think of (or whatever it was they heard the last guy say, in the D35's case it's the spacing of the bearings). AFAIK, D44 wheel hubs are not sold with pre-installed races, so is why you don't see so many failed bearings on them (people are normally prompted to install both the cone and the race from a matched set since neither item pre-exists). Guaranteed if you mix races & cones on a D44, you're gonna see a similar rate of failure there too.

This is why I always tell anyone doing brake or wheel bearing work on these trucks to get rid of any pre-installed races and use both parts of a matched bearing set (perhaps the Brakes forum needs a Sticky on this). Practicing that myself, I've yet to have one fail (excepting from water intrusion once). And that's with heavy 35x12.50R15 mud tires on -12mm offset wheels (plenty of cantilever action going on there lol).

Nicely detailed diagrams, BTW :icon_thumby:
I agree, matched bearings and races as an installed pair is indeed a thing. Unfortunately, while that information is out there, it's surprising how few know about it.
 

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