Low profile, locked hub possibility?

[JoshT]

I do not have build threads for either… yet. I do have a couple vids on my YouTube channel and more coming. At some point I’ll probably sit down and do a build thread or two.

Oh, and for 83-97 Rangers, my understanding is that the engine crossmember and 2wd beam pivots are different. Possibly the coil buckets too. The only RBV that had the same everything except axle pivots was the 2wd Bronco II. My choptop was a 2wd and I believe only the passenger side beam pivot was different. Swapped that and bolted in the 4x4 TTB. Dropped the dummy t-case and put a 4x4 one on. For whatever strange reason, Ford did it that way with those, and only those.

I think I’d seriously consider dropping an older Ranger body on a newer Ranger frame if I wanted the A-arm front suspension. Be faster and easier than doing major mods to an older frame for better road handling. Swap the chassis wiring over while the cab is off and plug it all together when you drop the cab on if you want to keep all the engine stuff matching the older cab, or change cab side harnesses. It’s really not that scary. I was a little worried when I did a half frame replacement on my green 00 but it’s really not that scary once you do it. I wouldn’t be afraid to do it again.

Now that I'm on the computer I see the youtube link in your signature. I'll check it out.

Yep, the BIIs were weird like that. IIRC the idea behind the dummy transfer case was because that combination was actually shorter than the 2wd transmission which meant better driveline angles. I recall the diferent bracketry on 2WD BIIs being one of the issues encountered by the few people that have decided to lower them int he past. Now that you mention those and got me thinking about it, I think you can put the 2wd beams in the 4wd pivots, but you can't get it as low as a 2wd truck would be. I don't know what else was required to lower those BIIs I've seen done. Even if you were to swap the pivot brackets, I don't know how low you;d be able to get before the different crossmember cause problems.

I have seriously considered doing just that in the past. I mean take 3 inches out of the frame between the front and rear cab mounts (not core support bushings) and everything from the earlier frame would bolt right on. Prep the new frame, pull the body off, swap the drivetrain, wiring, and stuff to the new frame, bolt the body back on. Instead I'm going to lower and V8 AWD swap the 99, and think about what the future of the first gen is. I'm think a low street truck with it too, but more of an economy mode build. Something that gets good gas mileage and can daily drive to work, maybe a mildly built 2.3T in place of the stock N/A 2.3L or an EB swap..

OK, frame swap is almost less work...

The difference between the 4wd and 2wd is more/less the engine crossmember (the TIB pivot is different, but it attaches to the engine cross member, so they go together) The issue is, the engine crossmember is welded into the frame rails.

If you want to match OEM, in theory, you only need to cut small chunk of frame out in yard - from just before to just after the coil buckets/engine crossmember

I think you need to unbolt engine, but its been a while. And I think the trailing arm mounts are same, but you can compare in yard.​

This gets you the engine crossmember and all the TIB components. (Pick a '95+ as they have better brakes)​

When you get pieces home, you unbolt everything and cutaway the frame remnants, leaving only the engine crossmember.

Then you remove the TTB and carefully remove 4x4 engine cross member (OK, engine was out for me, and I started with the fire wrench before cleaning up with grinder. With 4wd cross member out of way, install 2wd one, welding in same positions as it was in truck in yard.

However, it might be easier to make TIB to frame brackets - Vendors sell brackets to lift 4wds, so going mounting TIB should be possible - some "massaging" of the engine crossmember might be required.

Bolt all TIB parts in, remove the rear axle lift blocks (or flip to under spring if using dream beams) and go racing. Over the years, there have been "kits" to add 2nd (slave) pitman arm on passengers side and the cross link. Then you use 2nd driver's side tie rod and bump steer is history.

You're luck you're not working with newer SLA frame, they are completely different for suspension mounting and frame swap is definitely less work for those.

Thank you for that info. I thought it might be welded in, but I wasn't sure. I know that it is on my F-100. I think the rest of the crossmembers are rivited in on both of those trucks, but the engine crossmember is welded.

So now were talking removing the engine for access to the crossmember. The transmission need to be swapped for the 2wd version. Rear driveshaft would need to be swapped out too. That's the whole drivetrain coming out right there. You're halfway to having it stripped to the frame. If I were attempting any work like this I'd be pulling the cab for access, that just leaves 6-8 bolts to pull the bed.

So do all that, then bolt the stuff back onto a different frame. -OR- Do all that, then remove 4x4 suspension brackets, cut out 4x4 cross member, weld in new 4x2 crossmember, install 4x2 brackets,

Ya know, doing a frame swap really is starting to sound like the more difficult option.... NOT!!!

Ok, I'll play ball a little more here.

If we're going to entertain the idea that 2wd brackets may bolt onto a 4x4 frame without cutting and welding, it shouldn't be necessary to make TIB frame brackets. I know for sure that NEW reproduction 2wd axle pivots can be purchased from Autofab. Considering rust repair needs and the fact that they didn't really change from 1989-1997, you can probably purchase NEW 2wd coil spring and shock towers.

I still think a 2wd frame swap is the way to go. By the time the OP gets done cutting and hacking the frame from 2wd to 4wd the thing probably isn't going to pass tech inspection to run on a track anyway.

 

[kodogtwh]

By the time the OP gets done cutting and hacking the frame from 2wd to 4wd the thing probably isn't going to pass tech inspection to run on a track anyway.

We'll see.

 

[don4331]

Now that I'm on the computer I see the youtube link in your signature. I'll check it out.

Yep, the BIIs were weird like that. IIRC the idea behind the dummy transfer case was because that combination was actually shorter than the 2wd transmission which meant better driveline angles. I recall the different bracketry on 2WD BIIs being one of the issues encountered by the few people that have decided to lower them int he past. Now that you mention those and got me thinking about it, I think you can put the 2wd beams in the 4wd pivots, but you can't get it as low as a 2wd truck would be. I don't know what else was required to lower those BIIs I've seen done. Even if you were to swap the pivot brackets, I don't know how low you;d be able to get before the different crossmember cause problems.

I have seriously considered doing just that in the past. I mean take 3 inches out of the frame between the front and rear cab mounts (not core support bushings) and everything from the earlier frame would bolt right on. Prep the new frame, pull the body off, swap the drivetrain, wiring, and stuff to the new frame, bolt the body back on. Instead I'm going to lower and V8 AWD swap the 99, and think about what the future of the first gen is. I'm think a low street truck with it too, but more of an economy mode build. Something that gets good gas mileage and can daily drive to work, maybe a mildly built 2.3T in place of the stock N/A 2.3L or an EB swap..



Thank you for that info. I thought it might be welded in, but I wasn't sure. I know that it is on my F-100. I think the rest of the crossmembers are riveted in on both of those trucks, but the engine crossmember is welded.

So now were talking removing the engine for access to the crossmember. The transmission need to be swapped for the 2wd version. Rear driveshaft would need to be swapped out too. That's the whole drivetrain coming out right there. You're halfway to having it stripped to the frame. If I were attempting any work like this I'd be pulling the cab for access, that just leaves 6-8 bolts to pull the bed.

So do all that, then bolt the stuff back onto a different frame. -OR- Do all that, then remove 4x4 suspension brackets, cut out 4x4 cross member, weld in new 4x2 crossmember, install 4x2 brackets,

Ya know, doing a frame swap really is starting to sound like the more difficult option.... NOT!!!

Ok, I'll play ball a little more here.

If we're going to entertain the idea that 2wd brackets may bolt onto a 4x4 frame without cutting and welding, it shouldn't be necessary to make TIB frame brackets. I know for sure that NEW reproduction 2wd axle pivots can be purchased from Autofab. Considering rust repair needs and the fact that they didn't really change from 1989-1997, you can probably purchase NEW 2wd coil spring and shock towers.

I still think a 2wd frame swap is the way to go. By the time the OP gets done cutting and hacking the frame from 2wd to 4wd the thing probably isn't going to pass tech inspection to run on a track anyway.

It's not because the 2wd transmission was longer - you can see in '89 when they started using 2wd transmissions they need an adapter that adds about an inch to the driveshaft. I know the fundamental issue is BII needs a drive shaft with CV joint and apparently Ford didn't think the double cardon style driveshaft from a 4wd RCSB Ranger met requirements for durability/vibration.

You need long slip joint on transmission yoke to ensure when both tripod and slip joints are at minimums that you still have adequate engagement, but other than that, no big issue with '89 solution. Obviously the cost of 1359* was dirt cheap as tooling up for double repezza joint drive shaft with slip yoke into 2wd transmission should have easily been amortized (1 in 7 BIIs was 2wd).

You are correct that just mounting 2wd mounts on 4wd engine mount leaves RBV at 4wd height. Kind of like torsion bar 2wd '98+ Rangers. Using custom TIB mounts gets you to 2wd height but limit travel before you hit engine mount. Probably OK on track, not so much on street (at least not around here).

Wouldn't it be easier to move rear cab mounts 3" forward on '98+ frame; split front from back frame section and bolt back together 3" shorter (frame is 2 pieces and will slide together the extra distance). If you fill in the rivet holes (plug weld) and paint over, no one would even know you were using newer frame.
Note: The engine compartment cab mounts are narrower (hopefully I'm not bass ackwards here) on 98+ frames, so you need to reposition those mounts too, but you can weld the ones from old frame on once cab is positioned on front cab mounts. (I did SuperCab where front and rear cab mounts are same, so only needed to worry about engine mounts).

Assuming engine crossmember is carefully replaced, tech would never know it was swapped and all the TIB parts would look factory/approve aftermarket (dream beams).

*I'm still surprised that @lil_Blue_Ford 's 1359 transfer case didn't have oil in it. I would have thought input and output bearings and speedometer gears would have appreciated a little lubrication.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

It's not because the 2wd transmission was longer - you can see in '89 when they started using 2wd transmissions they need an adapter that adds about an inch to the driveshaft. I know the fundamental issue is BII needs a drive shaft with CV joint and apparently Ford didn't think the double cardon style driveshaft from a 4wd RCSB Ranger met requirements for durability/vibration.
View attachment 89487
You need long slip joint on transmission yoke to ensure when both tripod and slip joints are at minimums that you still have adequate engagement, but other than that, no big issue with '89 solution. Obviously the cost of 1359* was dirt cheap as tooling up for double repezza joint drive shaft with slip yoke into 2wd transmission should have easily been amortized (1 in 7 BIIs was 2wd).

You are correct that just mounting 2wd mounts on 4wd engine mount leaves RBV at 4wd height. Kind of like torsion bar 2wd '98+ Rangers. Using custom TIB mounts gets you to 2wd height but limit travel before you hit engine mount. Probably OK on track, not so much on street (at least not around here).

Wouldn't it be easier to move rear cab mounts 3" forward on '98+ frame; split front from back frame section and bolt back together 3" shorter (frame is 2 pieces and will slide together the extra distance). If you fill in the rivet holes (plug weld) and paint over, no one would even know you were using newer frame.
Note: The engine compartment cab mounts are narrower (hopefully I'm not bass ackwards here) on 98+ frames, so you need to reposition those mounts too, but you can weld the ones from old frame on once cab is positioned on front cab mounts. (I did SuperCab where front and rear cab mounts are same, so only needed to worry about engine mounts).

Assuming engine crossmember is carefully replaced, tech would never know it was swapped and all the TIB parts would look factory/approve aftermarket (dream beams).

*I'm still surprised that @lil_Blue_Ford 's 1359 transfer case didn't have oil in it. I would have thought input and output bearings and speedometer gears would have appreciated a little lubrication.

So, I’m not sure the CV was absolutely necessary on the BII. My 88 and 89 Eddie Bauers both had CV driveshafts, but my 89 choptop had (and still has) U-joint shafts and so did my 86 parts B2. I’ve never noticed any driveline vibration even jacked up on 35s with it. My 88 is getting my other set of u-joint shafts.

So the 98+ front frame section drops almost immediately after the section where front and rear frames are joined, so I don’t think there is 3” that can be lost there. I could be wrong though, I’d have to measure but there might not be as much as you think and it would mess with the location of the front bed mount. There’s a lot of straight and flat frame between the front and rear cab mounts though that would be easy enough to cut, weld and plate.

It was a fully machined 1350 T-case. Should still be around here somewhere. Really kinda odd. They just hammered a freeze plug in the front output hole, put a single bearing in the front instead of the planetary, clipped a slip joint joining front and rear shafts so it couldn’t move and called it a day. Completely empty, no evidence of ever having oil. Of course, you’d have to fill the thing completely full, way above the fill plug to get anywhere near the bearings since there’s nothing to sling oil around.

 

[JoshT]

It's not because the 2wd transmission was longer - you can see in '89 when they started using 2wd transmissions they need an adapter that adds about an inch to the driveshaft. I know the fundamental issue is BII needs a drive shaft with CV joint and apparently Ford didn't think the double cardon style driveshaft from a 4wd RCSB Ranger met requirements for durability/vibration.

Cool. Whast I was saying was based on stuff I read about the BII in the past. I've never actually owned one myself. I should have, my dad had a '90 model 4x4 and I would have bought it if I had known he was interested in selling. Next thing I knew he had sold it to a friend of the family. Again I would have bought it, but before I knew it had been traded in on something else. I did see it sitting on a car lot once afterwards, but they were asking about 3 times what it was worth and being less than honest about condition or history.

Wouldn't it be easier to move rear cab mounts 3" forward on '98+ frame; split front from back frame section and bolt back together 3" shorter (frame is 2 pieces and will slide together the extra distance). If you fill in the rivet holes (plug weld) and paint over, no one would even know you were using newer frame.
Note: The engine compartment cab mounts are narrower (hopefully I'm not bass ackwards here) on 98+ frames, so you need to reposition those mounts too, but you can weld the ones from old frame on once cab is positioned on front cab mounts. (I did SuperCab where front and rear cab mounts are same, so only needed to worry about engine mounts).

You could do it the way you suggested, but then you are going to have to relocate the rear cab mounts forward to line up with the earlier cab and the bed will not bolt on. You'd have to shorten the rear frame section then reattach. IMO plug welding would not be a good option for rejoining the frame and you'll need to put bolts through those holes. Either way, it will still be aparent that the frame has been sectioned and rejoined right there, unless you have access to and the ability to install the rivets that Ford used. Most people don't, myself included.

On all Ranger frames there is a kickup in the frame that starts at the rear cab mount and, IIRC, levels off just before the front bed bolts. The rear bed bolt locations will still line up, but with the 3" section cut out where you suggested the front bed bolts will not have a place to go and the frame won't support the bed in that area. Between relocating the cab mounts and modifying the frame to support/attach the bed, it would still be apparent that the frame had been modified.

Doing it the way I suggest you remove 3" from the frame in the same place that Ford added it on the standard cabs, between the front and rear cab mounts. This is a nice straight section that, as @lil_Blue_Ford states, would be easy to cut, weld, and plate. Once shortened an earlier cab and bed can be bolted on without touching the other cab and bed mounting point or building structure to support the front of the bed.

Looks like I was mistaken about the rediator support mounts. I was remembering that the extended cabs would interchange with regards to bolting it on the frame, that would suggest that the core support mounts were the same. Looking the swap article in the tech section it does look like legoms013 had to extend the core support mounts by 1-1/16" per side to put the 2000 cab on his 1996 frame. That makes it even easier to go the other way. Where he had to extend the mounts, putting a pre-97 cab on a post-98 frame should just need redrilling the existing mounts for the narrower spacing.

So the 98+ front frame section drops almost immediately after the section where front and rear frames are joined, so I don’t think there is 3” that can be lost there. I could be wrong though, I’d have to measure but there might not be as much as you think and it would mess with the location of the front bed mount. There’s a lot of straight and flat frame between the front and rear cab mounts though that would be easy enough to cut, weld and plate.

Eggzactly, but I assume that @don4331 sugesting to shorten the rear frame section 3" rather than the front section.

 

[don4331]

Filling dummy transfer case up to fill plug would be darn close to bearing level; close enough that every bump/dip/hill you went over would oil bearings (I'm looking at disassembled bw1350 as I type this). Waste of oil and not much oiling, but the bearings aren't really under much load without low range/front axle drive.

I still think safer to add mounting bracket to frame at back of cab if/as required to support front of box, than to section the frame in the middle - that's point of highest stress. You need to be good welder and properly fish plate if you're sectioning between cab mounts. And you're still messing in area Ford says don't cut. The cab mounts move pretty easy. Engine mounts for cab are in middle of box section in '98+ frame, moving them in 1" puts them on inner vertical of the box. You need to add a tab/notch the frame for securing nut appropriately.

I wasn't clear enough on plug welds. I would still bolt frame sections together - you need to for the front spring hangers at very least; just fill in the extra holes with plug welds so it didn't scream modified. Note, if after installing bolts, you take a hole saw to the bolt head and make it round, then smooth bolt head with flap wheel and stamp rivet gun hash on, you'd never know it wasn't an original rivet from outside. On driver's side inside, the nuts are hidden by gas tank, and I have heat shield for exhaust hiding the passenger side. (OK, my truck was SuperCab Long box, but concept is same).

Hopefully, OP is getting some data out of this discussion.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Since replacement spring hangers bolt on and that is where most of the rivets are that join the frame, I’m not sure that having bolts instead of rivets there is going to make anyone worry about the frame being worked on. Most people have no idea the frame sections are joined there to begin with.

Yes, being a good welder is important for any frame welding. If you’re not comfortable in your welding, you either need someone else to do the welding or to stay away from any work that requires welding. Or learn to get better. Personally, I wouldn’t be worried about cutting and welding that frame section under the cab. With the cab off, it would be easy to get a metal shop to bend a C in some 1/8”-3/16” thick sheet that could fit snug around the frame and make it about as large as you could and if anything, I’d think it should be stronger than stock.