Low profile, locked hub possibility?

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Might have something wrong in the front end, then. I've driven my TTB ranger home a few times on the front axle, and the only difference is the truck torques the other way under Acceleration. Although if youve got a lift or something the geometry might not be perfect, or maybe the geometry is different for full-size stuff.

Front end was in good shape both times. It’s not that it’s unmanageable, it’s uncomfortable and you can tell it doesn’t like it. I’m always worried that I’m gonna blow it apart. Course, some of that is based on the fact that the 300-6 and ZF5 connected with a Stage 2 clutch has shown it’s ability to snap 1330 U-joints and there’s smaller ones than that in the front if I remember right. I’m also running 1-ton suspension, no lift. Ladder rack and side boxes live on it, it’s a work rig.

 

[don4331]

It's not that big of a deal, but I am going to run wheels that have a fairly low offset, so the hub would look pretty bad sticking out almost as far as the lip of the wheel. That, and if the hub wasn't sticking out so far I could run (hub centric) wheel spacers that are tall enough to allow me to run wheels with a smaller hub bore (more wheel variety).


That's the thing, I intend to race this truck on an autocross course. Plus maybe the occasional road course, considering how I'm not far from VIR, or Road Atlanta. 4x4 is certainly stronger, because it's a direct connection, but again it would need to be disconnected before any sort of tight turning, to avoid the risk of binding and breaking almost the entire front drivetrain. It's like a spool vs an LSD. Strength vs flexibility.

Running an '89- well anything with TTB - on autocross is bad idea: See "Unsafe at any speed" by Ralph Nader.

The TTB tends to a. jack the front end up when rapidly changed in direction, b. roll the outside tire under. The combination is bad for control - vehicles tend to go rubber side up.

TTB is great for things like desert racing as the longer arms allow for more travel, so you can hit bigger whoops at same speed or same whoops at faster speed.

But street racing is asking for trouble - it's not even great for drag racing...

Aside: NP242 is OK - but when in AWD, its an open center differential, so if one tire starts spinning, all the power goes there. And while it can somewhat easily be bolted up to a V-8 transmission, there really isn't adapter to a stock Ranger transmission (just making sure people were aware of limitations).

 

[kodogtwh]

Running an '89- well anything with TTB - on autocross is bad idea: See "Unsafe at any speed" by Ralph Nader.

The TTB tends to a. jack the front end up when rapidly changed in direction, b. roll the outside tire under. The combination is bad for control - vehicles tend to go rubber side up.

TTB is great for things like desert racing as the longer arms allow for more travel, so you can hit bigger whoops at same speed or same whoops at faster speed.

But street racing is asking for trouble - it's not even great for drag racing...

Aside: NP242 is OK - but when in AWD, its an open center differential, so if one tire starts spinning, all the power goes there. And while it can somewhat easily be bolted up to a V-8 transmission, there really isn't adapter to a stock Ranger transmission (just making sure people were aware of limitations).

Has anyone ever tested TTB with a properly set up spring&shock combo, at the right ride height? Forgive my very rough, text based description, but if the arm is facing downwards, inside to outside, that makes sense. Putting it under a lateral load would apply forces that would push the front end upwards, due to the arch the (effective) A-arm travels in. But if you were to lower it enough, and get the arm nominally horizontal, it would nullify those forces. Those forces are also present in almost any suspension setup. If the main linkage between the knuckle/wheel sees lateral forces, and is not horizontal to the ground, it will apply vertical force, as well. They are exaggerated in a TTB setup because of the sheer size of the effective A-arm is. I need to test this in person, still. At least in my own imaginary world, theoretically the tipsy nature of TTB can be solved by simply lowering it, to correct the nominal geometry.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Look at my avatar. Short course off road. That was the result of the first time on the track. I had almost finished an s-curve when I ended up like that. If I had known what I know now I would have chosen a SLA front-end truck to use. Lowering the truck to get the axles like you were describing above is possible but you lose bump travel. That might not matter so much on a road course... What I ended up doing was putting in the largest front sway bar (iirc 1 1/8") I could find on the front, and tweaked a large bar (iirc 1") out of a f-150 to fit on the back. It helped but I consider it a bit of a bandaid.

 

[don4331]

@kodogtwh : I understand what you are saying. But Ford's implementation of TTB isn't set up for what you want to do. And as you indicate, the size of the arm results in it having so much mass that it is difficult (impossible) to set up shock&spring combo properly - too much unsprung weight.

The problem with attempting to lower it is you have a large differential that runs into important things (engine, frame). You could lower the pivot point on the frame, but you are very limited (couple degrees) on the amount you can adjust the camber. I suppose you could do a cut&turn, the opposite of what the guys lifting do to get things back where you need them. But that is lot of work for minimal gain.

Note: you are also fighting bump steer with Ford's steering as the length of the passenger's steering arm is much shorter than the TTB beam.

 

[4x4junkie]

Lowering it like that would also put a constant angle on the middle u-joint. You'd have a nasty vibration at all times, even while driving in a straight line.

As for TTB and AWD, I don't see that it can't work well for street use (such as driving in inclement weather) as long as everything is set up properly (the steering linkage angle in particular)... But I agree, autocross is something entirely different. The vibrations from the front axle u-joints while steering it into turns on a track (especially while hard on the throttle) I can see causing issues. It might be more feasible if you were to replace the u-joint axles with CV axles (RCV Performance makes CV shafts for TTB axles, but they are $$$$$).

 

[JoshT]

@lil_Blue_Ford , @don4331, and @4x4junkie are steering you right. I highly recommend listening to the words of wisdom they are offering.

I've wanted to do the same with a Ranger, the road course part that is. I think these guys have covered the subject as well as I could, and they've exhibited more patience than I would have. I do want to add a few things to what they've said.

First, look into track rules. I wanted (still do) want to build a First Gen Ranger that I can play with on an auto-x course. More of a budget build to have fun, not be competitive, as I'd be staying with beams and not going custom or full frame like some forum members. Anyhow, one of the issues back then was that Road Atlanta did not allow trucks on track. That may have changed since, and I'm not familiar with VIR. You'd also have to pass inspection and I doubt they'd pass a TTB Ranger, no matter how it's built

Second. If you're wanting to stick with a RBV for a auto-x you've got three options as I see it.

A) If you're stuck on a square body, give up the AWD. You could build a fun TIB Ranger that could do good on track. You don't need AWD, there a lot of RWD machines that work well.

B) If you're stuck on AWD, get a 98+ 4x4 to build on. Still limits on what you can do with it, but it's a much better starting point and more AWD friendly as has been mentioned. T-bar Rangers aren't like other manufacturers, off the shelf components don't exist to lower them a lot.


C) If you absolutely have to have both early model body and AWD, get custom. Consider swapping the early body onto a late frame. Get the looks you want and the components you need. It'll be a lot more work, but the easiest way to achieve what you seem to be after. After that I'd suggest going full custom tube frame build.

FWIW…

I‘m currently building my 00 green Ranger as a street toy. Did the 5.0 swap with the automatic and AWD case. Live front axle with CVs. Not the first time I’ve done this (built one with dad, for dad several years back). Easiest way to get a slick truck that will haul. I’m taking mine a couple steps beyond dad’s though. Got the Explorer disk brake 8.8 in it, headers, and a couple other tweaks. With the AWD, it will just go, no hunting for traction.

Sounds like my goals for the 99. You got build threads for either one?

 

[kodogtwh]

Okay, after all the info you guys have patiently given me, i've decided to give up on the pipe dream of a powered front axle track truck. Looks like if I'm gonna want to do anything on a track with this, it'll have to at least be 2wd TTB, if not something pulled from a newer ranger, crown vic, mustang II, or otherwise. I'll do some more research on the subject, and start looking at 2wd parts. Thanks again.

Don't dream beams set the lower ball joint at the same height as the inside arm link? That would do pretty good for geometry correction. All i'd need would be a steering setup that avoids as much bump steer as possible and lighten it everywhere I can...

 

[JoshT]

Don't give up on a dream, just be aware that it's going to take some work and not go quite how you thought. Maybe study your goals and reconsider how you are going to reach them.

TTB 2wd doesn't exist. 2wds were TIB. Twin Traction Beam - Twin I Beam
Same concept, many differences. Unfortunately you can't just bolt 2wd suspension into a 4wd truck to make the swap. Too many differences in the frame. You'd be looking at some major frame modifications or swapping, and if you are doing that there is not reason to limit it to TIB.

What is more important to you:
1) it is a square body Ranger and handles
2) it's an AWD Ranger and handles
3) it's AWD (or not) and f-in handles
4) its a squarebody AWD Ranger that might handle well
5) it's a Ranger (new or old) that REALLY F-IN HANDLES

All of them are achievable, but you need to make a decision on what you want ahead of time. here's each boiled down to its simplest.

1) get a 2wd to build, or frame swap to 2wd (I recomend the former)
2) get a 98+ 4x4 to build off of
3) get something other than a Ranger (probably the best option altogether)
4) frame swap and modification (most will need to be shortened at minimum)
5) Ditch everything except the Ranger body.

You figure out exactly what your dream is and there are people here that can probably help you get there. We can't do the impossible, which is pretty much where this thread started (road course TTB), and we can't tell you what you want, even though some may try.

 

[kodogtwh]

Don't give up on a dream, just be aware that it's going to take some work and not go quite how you thought. Maybe study your goals and reconsider how you are going to reach them.

TTB 2wd doesn't exist. 2wds were TIB. Twin Traction Beam - Twin I Beam
Same concept, many differences. Unfortunately you can't just bolt 2wd suspension into a 4wd truck to make the swap. Too many differences in the frame. You'd be looking at some major frame modifications or swapping, and if you are doing that there is not reason to limit it to TIB.

What is more important to you:
1) it is a square body Ranger and handles
2) it's an AWD Ranger and handles
3) it's AWD (or not) and f-in handles
4) its a squarebody AWD Ranger that might handle well
5) it's a Ranger (new or old) that REALLY F-IN HANDLES

All of them are achievable, but you need to make a decision on what you want ahead of time. here's each boiled down to its simplest.

1) get a 2wd to build, or frame swap to 2wd (I recomend the former)
2) get a 98+ 4x4 to build off of
3) get something other than a Ranger (probably the best option altogether)
4) frame swap and modification (most will need to be shortened at minimum)
5) Ditch everything except the Ranger body.

You figure out exactly what your dream is and there are people here that can probably help you get there. We can't do the impossible, which is pretty much where this thread started (road course TTB), and we can't tell you what you want, even though some may try.

Forgive me for not knowing the nomenclatures. What are the differences in the frame between a 4x4 & 4x2 ranger? Is there a tech article you can link me to? Surely it's something as simple as rivet-on bracketry for the suspension, I cant imagine ford going through an extensive redesign of the entire front frame section just to add/remove a front axle. After owning one of each, that's all I can remember the differences being; same frame, different brackets riveted on for suspension links.

 

[JoshT]

People telling or showing us is how we learn. For Rangers and BIIs, Explorers will vary slightly:

83-97:
All = beam type suspension
4x4 = Twin Traction Beam (TTB)
4x2 = Twin I Beam (TIB)

1998-2011:
All = Short Long Arm (SLA) type suspension <short upper arm, long lower arm>
Edge & 4x4 = Torsion Bar <they use torsion springs>
2wd = Coil <for coil springs>

I cant imagine ford going through an extensive redesign of the entire front frame section just to add/remove a front axle.

Trust me (or don't ) Ford and other manufacturers have done exactly that for less.

Yes, the frame can be different between 2wd and 4wd, among other variables. The shape of the frame rails can be different, the crossmembers likely are different, the mouting/pivot points are different, the coil and shock towers are different, etc. We're not talking about bolt on pieces either, all of this in attached with BIG rivets. I have not had a 2wd and 4wd of the 83-97 variety in the same location in a very long time. While I could compare a 2wd and 4wd of the SLA variety, it is not worth my time or energy to do so.

Yes, you may be able to bolt 2wd beams onto your 4wd frame, but you will not be able to accomplish the lowering and handling improvement that you want. IF the frame rails are the same shape you could swap all the 2wd bracketry and crossmembers over, but you would have to source them. About the only way you'll be able to source all of them is having access to a frame to pull them from. The 2wd and 4wd components also may not be (probably aren't) located using the same holes, so you may have to measure, locate, and drill holes for the 2wd components. For this you'll need access to a frame to do the measuring. Source a frame for parts, disassemble the truck enough to do this converting, swap over the components, and put it back together is going to take a lot of time work. You'll end up tearing the truck almost as far apart as you would to frame swap it. It would probably be less time and work to just swap in that frame you sourced for the components.

If I were doing all that, I'd probably swap to a newer frame. If you have an Extended cab, the wheel base and mounting points are the same from inception to end of production. If you have a regular cab, the 98+ frame needs to be shortened 3" between the front and rear cab mounts. If I'm not mistaken once those are done a 89-97 body would bolt on, bumpers and all.

It's your truck. Cut, weld, drill, hack, and grind to your hearts content. Build what you want, show me that it can be done. Before you start keep in mind that those types of projects are the ones that often never get finished and eventually sold as project cars or hauled for scrap. (BTDT) If I were in your position, I'd keep my truck usable as is, and pick up another to cut, hack, weld, and beat on.

If you do it, post the pictures. I'll grab the popcorn.

 

[kodogtwh]

People telling or showing us is how we learn. For Rangers and BIIs, Explorers will vary slightly:

83-97:
All = beam type suspension
4x4 = Twin Traction Beam (TTB)
4x2 = Twin I Beam (TIB)

1998-2011:
All = Short Long Arm (SLA) type suspension <short upper arm, long lower arm>
Edge & 4x4 = Torsion Bar <they use torsion springs>
2wd = Coil <for coil springs>



Trust me (or don't ) Ford and other manufacturers have done exactly that for less.

Yes, the frame can be different between 2wd and 4wd, among other variables. The shape of the frame rails can be different, the crossmembers likely are different, the mouting/pivot points are different, the coil and shock towers are different, etc. We're not talking about bolt on pieces either, all of this in attached with BIG rivets. I have not had a 2wd and 4wd of the 83-97 variety in the same location in a very long time. While I could compare a 2wd and 4wd of the SLA variety, it is not worth my time or energy to do so.

Yes, you may be able to bolt 2wd beams onto your 4wd frame, but you will not be able to accomplish the lowering and handling improvement that you want. IF the frame rails are the same shape you could swap all the 2wd bracketry and crossmembers over, but you would have to source them. About the only way you'll be able to source all of them is having access to a frame to pull them from. The 2wd and 4wd components also may not be (probably aren't) located using the same holes, so you may have to measure, locate, and drill holes for the 2wd components. For this you'll need access to a frame to do the measuring. Source a frame for parts, disassemble the truck enough to do this converting, swap over the components, and put it back together is going to take a lot of time work. You'll end up tearing the truck almost as far apart as you would to frame swap it. It would probably be less time and work to just swap in that frame you sourced for the components.

If I were doing all that, I'd probably swap to a newer frame. If you have an Extended cab, the wheel base and mounting points are the same from inception to end of production. If you have a regular cab, the 98+ frame needs to be shortened 3" between the front and rear cab mounts. If I'm not mistaken once those are done a 89-97 body would bolt on, bumpers and all.

It's your truck. Cut, weld, drill, hack, and grind to your hearts content. Build what you want, show me that it can be done. Before you start keep in mind that those types of projects are the ones that often never get finished and eventually sold as project cars or hauled for scrap. (BTDT) If I were in your position, I'd keep my truck usable as is, and pick up another to cut, hack, weld, and beat on.

If you do it, post the pictures. I'll grab the popcorn.

I have access to an air hammer, and have removed frame rivets before with it, so replacing bracketry like that isn't an issue for me. Looks like i'm running to the junkyard with a few demon blades for the sawzall, pulling the frame and suspension from a 2wd TIB truck from the trans crossmember forward. I'm going for not quite minimum effort, but a step above that. Reasonable effort. No way in hell amd I going to be doing a frame swap. I'll track the damn thing at stock 4x4 height before I go through all that, the truck is already in fantastic shape. I'll bring my nice camera and take pictures of the front end setup on two trucks at my local yard, they still have a few dozen.

 

[JoshT]

Good luck! Like I said, showing and telling are how we learn. Maybe you'll learn us something.

I do know I'm gonna need a bigger bag of popcorn. If that one didn't last through an episode of Picard, it sure isn't going to last through this build.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

@lil_Blue_Ford , @don4331, and @4x4junkie are steering you right. I highly recommend listening to the words of wisdom they are offering.

I've wanted to do the same with a Ranger, the road course part that is. I think these guys have covered the subject as well as I could, and they've exhibited more patience than I would have. I do want to add a few things to what they've said.

First, look into track rules. I wanted (still do) want to build a First Gen Ranger that I can play with on an auto-x course. More of a budget build to have fun, not be competitive, as I'd be staying with beams and not going custom or full frame like some forum members. Anyhow, one of the issues back then was that Road Atlanta did not allow trucks on track. That may have changed since, and I'm not familiar with VIR. You'd also have to pass inspection and I doubt they'd pass a TTB Ranger, no matter how it's built

Second. If you're wanting to stick with a RBV for a auto-x you've got three options as I see it.

A) If you're stuck on a square body, give up the AWD. You could build a fun TIB Ranger that could do good on track. You don't need AWD, there a lot of RWD machines that work well.

B) If you're stuck on AWD, get a 98+ 4x4 to build on. Still limits on what you can do with it, but it's a much better starting point and more AWD friendly as has been mentioned. T-bar Rangers aren't like other manufacturers, off the shelf components don't exist to lower them a lot.


C) If you absolutely have to have both early model body and AWD, get custom. Consider swapping the early body onto a late frame. Get the looks you want and the components you need. It'll be a lot more work, but the easiest way to achieve what you seem to be after. After that I'd suggest going full custom tube frame build.



Sounds like my goals for the 99. You got build threads for either one?

Think that about covers it.

I do not have build threads for either… yet. I do have a couple vids on my YouTube channel and more coming. At some point I’ll probably sit down and do a build thread or two.

Oh, and for 83-97 Rangers, my understanding is that the engine crossmember and 2wd beam pivots are different. Possibly the coil buckets too. The only RBV that had the same everything except axle pivots was the 2wd Bronco II. My choptop was a 2wd and I believe only the passenger side beam pivot was different. Swapped that and bolted in the 4x4 TTB. Dropped the dummy t-case and put a 4x4 one on. For whatever strange reason, Ford did it that way with those, and only those.

I think I’d seriously consider dropping an older Ranger body on a newer Ranger frame if I wanted the A-arm front suspension. Be faster and easier than doing major mods to an older frame for better road handling. Swap the chassis wiring over while the cab is off and plug it all together when you drop the cab on if you want to keep all the engine stuff matching the older cab, or change cab side harnesses. It’s really not that scary. I was a little worried when I did a half frame replacement on my green 00 but it’s really not that scary once you do it. I wouldn’t be afraid to do it again.

 

[don4331]

I have access to an air hammer, and have removed frame rivets before with it, so replacing bracketry like that isn't an issue for me. Looks like i'm running to the junkyard with a few demon blades for the sawzall, pulling the frame and suspension from a 2wd TIB truck from the trans crossmember forward. I'm going for not quite minimum effort, but a step above that. Reasonable effort. No way in hell amd I going to be doing a frame swap. I'll track the damn thing at stock 4x4 height before I go through all that, the truck is already in fantastic shape. I'll bring my nice camera and take pictures of the front end setup on two trucks at my local yard, they still have a few dozen.

OK, frame swap is almost less work...

The difference between the 4wd and 2wd is more/less the engine crossmember (the TIB pivot is different, but it attaches to the engine cross member, so they go together) The issue is, the engine crossmember is welded into the frame rails.

If you want to match OEM, in theory, you only need to cut small chunk of frame out in yard - from just before to just after the coil buckets/engine crossmember

I think you need to unbolt engine, but its been a while. And I think the trailing arm mounts are same, but you can compare in yard.​

This gets you the engine crossmember and all the TIB components. (Pick a '95+ as they have better brakes)​

When you get pieces home, you unbolt everything and cutaway the frame remnants, leaving only the engine crossmember.

Then you remove the TTB and carefully remove 4x4 engine cross member (OK, engine was out for me, and I started with the fire wrench before cleaning up with grinder. With 4wd cross member out of way, install 2wd one, welding in same positions as it was in truck in yard.

However, it might be easier to make TIB to frame brackets - Vendors sell brackets to lift 4wds, so going mounting TIB should be possible - some "massaging" of the engine crossmember might be required.

Bolt all TIB parts in, remove the rear axle lift blocks (or flip to under spring if using dream beams) and go racing. Over the years, there have been "kits" to add 2nd (slave) pitman arm on passengers side and the cross link. Then you use 2nd driver's side tie rod and bump steer is history.

You're luck you're not working with newer SLA frame, they are completely different for suspension mounting and frame swap is definitely less work for those.