2.3L ('83-'97) Keeps cranking

[Uncle Gump]

So you jumped the relay with a screw driver... ignition wire disconnected... remove screw driver and it kept cranking?

 

[Otto57]

Correct. At first it was ok and I tried it again and it kept cranking

 

[James Morse]

Replace starter's solenoid, or just replace starter.
It could be multiple issues but if you are bypassing ignition switch and ignition relay on the fender, then there's nothing else involved except the starter's solenoid. I mean, there is, like the cables, but your problem isn't that you aren't getting power to the starter, it's the opposite.
If starter's solenoid contacts were fused it would indeed happen when you reconnect battery but if solenoid is getting stuck when it's powered, conceivably when you disconnect battery it returns to its home (unpowered position) and thus doesn't run when you reconnect battery.
Just follow what they (guys who know more than me) tell you here. There are limited parts involved and ways to test each of them to isolate the issue.
Maybe you could get a starter, hook it up without installing it and try it... so you could take it back if it's not that... but I think it is.
You could also test to see if there's current going on/off at the connections to the starter (its solenoid). If you operate the key and get current on/off per how it should operate that would tell me it's in the starter/solenoid. If the current doesn't go off when you release the key then you know it's upstream of the starter... doesn't mean something isn't also wrong with starter, but you'd know that much of things is ok (or not).
As to not getting spark, that sounds like a completely separate issue? Fix one thing at a time... might be related but I don't know how - other guys will know if related though.
I suppose you could have an intermittent short somewhere but you would find that out in the tests. The fact it happens when you short across the terminals at the starter tells me the problem, or part of it anyway, is right there at the starter or more accurately probably its solenoid.
It kind of bothers me that things were fine until you replaced the fuel tank. But I have to think this is just coincidental failure, I can't imagine how that would have anything to do with the ignition problem unless something related was damaged in the process which seems doubtful.
You could also take out your starter and bench test it or take to parts place for them to test, instead of getting a new one to test. But I think you have done that test and it says replace starter, to me. Not that expensive, and Advance has one with lifetime guarantee (one replacement). You can replace just the solenoid, but to me, it makes more sense to just replace the whole unit, if the issue is in that unit.

 

[Uncle Gump]

I guess I was assuming he was jumping the relay on the fenderwell.

 

[Otto57]

Yes, I jumped relay on fenderwell small S wire terminal to positive and it kept cranking. I don't understand how the starter solenoid could be the problem because it won't run unless it is getting constant power.

 

[Uncle Gump]

That is correct Otto...

 

[James Morse]

When you jump it you energize the solenoid, which closes the contacts for the starter itself. If the solenoid doesn't return 'home' when you release the key, or, take off the jumper at the fender, then it's stuck in its closed position so the starter motor will keep running, because there's always power to the starter, unless you disconnect its cable to the battery. When it's stuck like that (I'm assuming this is what's happening) you could try whacking it with something, like the handle of a long screwdriver, and see if it stops the starter motor... it might or might not... usually bad solenoids in my experience fail to close the contacts (the opposite of your issue) and we used to whack them as a temporary 'fix'.

 

[oldgeek]

An idea. Disconnect the cable going to the starter at the solenoid. Turn the ignition as though starting. Turn the key to off. Check if there is still voltage going out of the solenoid.

 

[James Morse]

Yes that's the one of the tests I recommended in my long post. If the power to that lead goes on and off correctly then you can assume the problem is in the solenoid at the starter. If not, then you can assume the problem is upstream of it. The solenoid could -still- be bad, too, but you already have tests for that when you bypass everything -except- the solenoid. If you don't have an electrical tester just hook up a 12v bulb and use that to test for current.
There are limited parts involved and you can test each part of the circuit and find the issue. I still say replace the solenoid on the starter or the whole starter assembly... and I'm interested to see how it pans out.

 

[Otto57]

So, the wire at the s terminal on the relay could be removed and try to start it, then turn it off and check for voltage on that wire. If there is still 12 volts then the ignition switch on the lower column is bad right? The starter cannot turn unless it has voltage coming into it from upstream.

 

[Uncle Gump]

I've seen stuck starter solenoids keep cranking.

This system uses a relay that provides ALL power to turn the starter. So if the relay cuts power to the starter... it would be impossible for the starter to continue cranking.

 

[Otto57]

Thank you. I'm confused enough.

 

[Uncle Gump]

When you jump it you energize the solenoid, which closes the contacts for the starter itself. If the solenoid doesn't return 'home' when you release the key, or, take off the jumper at the fender, then it's stuck in its closed position so the starter motor will keep running, because there's always power to the starter, unless you disconnect its cable to the battery. When it's stuck like that (I'm assuming this is what's happening) you could try whacking it with something, like the handle of a long screwdriver, and see if it stops the starter motor... it might or might not... usually bad solenoids in my experience fail to close the contacts (the opposite of your issue) and we used to whack them as a temporary 'fix'.

This truck only has one battery cable going to the starter. That cable has a fender mounted relay in that cable. That relay determines if there is battery voltage to the starter.

The fender mounted relay is stuck providing constant battery voltage to the starter solenoid... and it keeps cranking.

The fender mounted relay is stuck.

 

[oldgeek]

we used to whack them as a temporary 'fix'.

That's what my therapist keeps suggesting....

 

[James Morse]

You're saying the relay is inserted/spliced into this fat live cable, rather than there being another feed for the solenoid wire, from a relay?

Yeah except he said when he jumped it right at the starter it acted the same, at least the second time.

I'd work backwards from the starter like he did. If it acts the same when no other parts are involved it has to be the starter (at least the starter).

Then I'd try shorting at the relay like he did (I think) - it acted the same, right? That doesn't mean the relay is bad when you already have the same result when testing right at the starter.

Unless I'm mixed up somehow.