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I messed up my M5OD... but I think I know how to fix it


crazyramen

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Hello Ranger gurus,

I just got my M5OD rebuilt and put back in the truck. I have two issues, and I think I know how to solve them. I wanted to try to confirm that these fixes make sense with the symptoms I'm having.

1) The transmission is hard to get into first and second gear - I really have to push on it to get it in. I have no such issue on 3rd, 4th, or reverse. This happens with the engine on or off.
Fix?: Go through the process of bleeding the clutch

2) It goes into fifth gear fine when I have the clutch down, but then slips straight out when I release the clutch .If I hold the shifter knob in then it grinds.
Fix?: I did something dumb when taking the top apart. I lost one of the interlock pins. I THINK it was the larger interlock pin as shown HERE (and below). I have no idea where it could be or where to buy a new one. I'll try the dealership and some transmission shops to see if they can point me to it.

Is it possible that missing the interlock pin is impacting my ability to get into first and second?
 


Elutheros

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#1--- you probably got right--symptoms of air in the line.
#2---IDK
 

Shran

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I would concur that your clutch is more than likely not bled completely.

As for problem #2, well, missing parts could certainly cause problems. Your problem though? Not sure. I'm assuming that it didn't pop out of 5th before you tore the trans down? Did you change any parts in the 5th/reverse cluster? Any wear on the 5th/reverse shift fork? Slider ring installed backwards?
 

crazyramen

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Thanks yall for confirming #1.

As for #2 - nope this didn't happen before the teardown.

I replaced the syncros all around, along with the reverse gear and the 5th/reverse syncro sleeve. I suppose it might be on backwards, but it doesn't have an issue going into reverse.
The shifter fork wasn't any more worn than 1/2 or 3/4, so I don't think that's it.

I have those interlock pins on order from the local dealership, so I'll drive it around for now until those come in and see if that fixes it. I'm (wishfully) thinking that maybe without the pin in there, it made other pins slide and get in the way of the 5th/rev shifter fork shaft while going in that direction - not allowing 5th to go all the way in - and causing it to not mesh properly if I hold it in.

If not, then I guess it'll be time to open her back up - although I'll probably start by taking the extension housing off while it's still attached to the truck to see what I can see.
 

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For #1 not sure that's just air in the clutch system if its hard to shift into 1st and 2nd with engine off, that reads like a mechanical issue

With engine off shift into 1st and 2nd
Does it get easier after that to go between 1st and 2nd or is it still hard to shift?

Once you have shifted into a gear(engine off/vehicle parked) everything is aligned so returning to that gear should be easy
 

crazyramen

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For #1 not sure that's just air in the clutch system if its hard to shift into 1st and 2nd with engine off, that reads like a mechanical issue

With engine off shift into 1st and 2nd
Does it get easier after that to go between 1st and 2nd or is it still hard to shift?

Once you have shifted into a gear(engine off/vehicle parked) everything is aligned so returning to that gear should be easy
OK you're right - it does get easier after you have it in one gear to get to the other.

The shifter feels like it's hitting something and then I have to push harder to overcome that hang-up. Other times I have to put it back in neutral and take my foot off the clutch before putting it back in gear.
 

crazyramen

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I found a thread elsewhere - someone has a similar issue with one of the interlock pins missing.

"If the detent is missing or jammed, it will stop the shift fork from moving the synchronizer. See if you can manually move the 1/2 synchro back and forth into gear. Check all three of them." --A. Penland (justanswer.com)

So maybe the issues with 1/2 are caused by the missing pin and something else messed up my 5th. If the slider ring on the 5th/rev was backwards, would it still be able to go into rev?
 

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Clutch pedal should have little effect with engine off as far as shifting

BUT...........if vehicle is on a slope, even a slight one, and Parking brake is not on and holding tight then there would be stress on the gears holding vehicle in place, so would be hard to shift first time assuming your foot is on the brake to hold vehicle in place when shifting

If you block a tire, then shift to neutral to take stress off the output shaft you should be able to access all gears easily
 

Shran

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If the pads on the shift fork are worn (at all, IMO) it should be replaced. Any wear will create slop between that and the slider ring, decreasing the chance that it will fully shift into gear. If the ring is in backwards, it may not be fully engaging the gear itself either... Seems to me that it's very difficult to get that ring in backwards, though, it has a groove on one side that slips into the part below it.

I think you're on the right track with the interlock pin deal, keep us posted.
 

crazyramen

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The interlock pin has been returned to it's rightful place... and it made absolutely no change. Daaang

Anyway when I had the top cover off I double check the clearances on the shift forks/syncro rings, and they're in spec (at least the 1/2 and 3/4). I also tried shifting the transmission into gear by hand (just moving the syncro rings) and was unable to.

I did some more driving, and I don't really thing that it's an issue with air in the clutch line - although I have never experienced a bad clutch before. The clutch petal doesn't feel any different, and it never hangs up on anything but 1/2. I think RonD is onto it - it feels like a mechanical issue.

At this point my best guess is that the 1/2 ring was worn and after replacing the brass on 1st and 2nd the tolerances are messed up. Like maybe it's easier to shift if both sides of teeth are worn, rather than just one side? AKA new brass+old ring= hard shifting... I dunno if this really makes any sense, but I'm just spitballing at this point. As for 5th gear I honestly have no idea.

I think I'ma have to take it all back apart at some point, but that's going to be kinda difficult considering I'll need to commute for my job coming up soon. Maybe I'll order a new 1/2 ring in advance just in case and try to get 'er done in one weekend :/

Though, I will bleed the clutch line first just in case. Ahhh the more I look into it the more it looks like a major PITA and I really don't think that's it...
 
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Shran

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The interlock pin has been returned to it's rightful place... and it made absolutely no change. Daaang

Though, I will bleed the clutch line first just in case. Ahhh the more I look into it the more it looks like a major PITA and I really don't think that's it...
I'm assuming you had the trans out of the truck in order to pull the top cover off and replace that pin...? You should be able to slide the rings to select gears fairly easily. Sometimes you have to turn the input or output shaft a little while you're pushing the ring but they should not give you much resistance.

Curious why bleeding the clutch is a big deal? Didn't you have to bleed it at least twice now when you reinstalled the trans?
 

crazyramen

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I'm assuming you had the trans out of the truck in order to pull the top cover off and replace that pin...? You should be able to slide the rings to select gears fairly easily. Sometimes you have to turn the input or output shaft a little while you're pushing the ring but they should not give you much resistance.

Curious why bleeding the clutch is a big deal? Didn't you have to bleed it at least twice now when you reinstalled the trans?
Didn't bleed it when I did the clutch. I was under the impression that with the check valve you didn't need to, and that to do it properly you have to remove the master cylinder and bench bleed? Am I just dumb and should have bled it in the first place...?

Also I didn't have to take the trans out to get the top cover off since I've got a body lift on it. - just took the transfer case and crossmember off and lowered it slightly with a jack.
 

Shran

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Oh, gotcha... I ALWAYS bleed them any time the hose is disconnected. That check valve stops fluid from draining down but certainly does not prevent air from entering there... I would crack your bleeder open and run at least one or two reservoirs worth of fluid through the system. No need to bench bleed it if it was bled previously.

10-4 on the top cover. I've tried to remove them with the trans in place and no body lift... not enough room. That may explain why you could not shift gears though, since the input shaft is locked into the clutch and the output is connected to the t-case, it's likely that it was just bound up in both directions. I bet if the clutch was disengaged and/or the t-case in neutral, you would have been able to easily "shift".
 

crazyramen

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Oh, gotcha... I ALWAYS bleed them any time the hose is disconnected. That check valve stops fluid from draining down but certainly does not prevent air from entering there... I would crack your bleeder open and run at least one or two reservoirs worth of fluid through the system. No need to bench bleed it if it was bled previously.
I'll give that a go! Sounds easy enough!

Yeah I'm really glad I didn't have to pull the trans all the way off again. It was SUPER tight getting the cover off, but I managed. I made sure to give it a good clean above the trans first to not get so much dirt in it.
 

crazyramen

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Bleeding the clutch didn't work, so I got this sombitch back apart on the apartment floor (ask me how happy my girlfriend is) and the first thing I noticed after I got the top cover and extention housing of was that I couldn't notice anything... All the shift fork tolerances were in spec, the syncro>gear clearance was in spec (GOOD - they're all new!), and all the bearings looked like they were on right, but it was still very difficult to move the syncro sleeves by hand.

Once I started tearing it down more, I found some uneven wear on the (brand new) output shaft center bearing... hmmm

With the input and output shafts out the sleeves moved freely... interesting

The oil slinger and oil seal chewed each other up... very cool

So I measured my end play specs again and was having a hell of a time trying to get the mainshaft bearing races seated properly, so I quit for the day and ate some dinner and watched a stupid movie. When I came back this morning I found that the end play on the output shaft was way out of spec. I'm getting .021" end play when spec is .002"-.006". This makes a lot of sense, since the reason I tore it apart in the first place was because of a rattling noise(I thought it was just the syncros). It also accounts for the serious wear on the bearing race housings in the case, and the chewed up 3rd gear and hub. (see this post for those pics)

When I had the shafts back in to measure the endplay, I was able to move the sleeves no problem, so I think something was just getting misaligned by the extra endplay. I also think that this would account for the inability to shift into 5th.

I got the mainshaft shim kit along with bearings and seals on order from allstate gear and they should be here about a week from now.
 
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