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Handling the POWER

snoranger

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I've never driven a forklift with a clutch, except maybe an old tele-handler years ago. I've driven electric, gas, propane, diesel and hydrogen powered forklifts. All the ones with engines had automatic or hydrostatic transmissions. Just choose forward or reverse and push the accelerator.
Most IC engine forklifts have what’s called an inching control. Some of them have it as a 3rd pedal, others have it as part of single brake pedal.
On an inching control pedal the first part of the travel disengages the auto trans (it just dumps the fluid that goes to the clutch packs.) then the rest of the travel is what applies the brakes.
People will call it a clutch if it has a 3rd pedal, but most forklifts haven’t had a true clutch in decades.
 


bobbywalter

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I've never driven a forklift with a clutch, except maybe an old tele-handler years ago. I've driven electric, gas, propane, diesel and hydrogen powered forklifts. All the ones with engines had automatic or hydrostatic transmissions. Just choose forward or reverse and push the accelerator.
Your lucky...
 

stmitch

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I know that this is apparently a thread about fork lifts now, but I've got a question for the OP.

It will be a full electric, a 300 mile range appears to be a conservative number for the build as I'll be using only a single motor for a less aerodynamic vehicle (comparing to the awd model Y) but with only a single electric motor.
Why keep the transfer case and differentials at all if the goal is 300+ miles of range? They're only going to increase inefficiency in a vehicle that's already going to struggle with aerodynamic inefficiency. A motor on each axle would be more efficient, and they could likely be smaller/cheaper than a single motor with similar power output.

Maybe Magna starts selling their new EBeam by the time you're ready?
 
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rusty ol ranger

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Most IC engine forklifts have what’s called an inching control. Some of them have it as a 3rd pedal, others have it as part of single brake pedal.
On an inching control pedal the first part of the travel disengages the auto trans (it just dumps the fluid that goes to the clutch packs.) then the rest of the travel is what applies the brakes.
People will call it a clutch if it has a 3rd pedal, but most forklifts haven’t had a true clutch in decades.
Back when i worked at the menards DC we had a old ( 87 ish i think?) Sellick SD80 all terrain forklift. It had a little 4 cylinder perkins, 4wd, and a 4 speed manual. Yes manual (it had 4 forwards and a button tto push when you moved the shifter, reverse and forward was still chosen in traditional forkllift style, backwards H pattern)....anyways it rode on big fluid filled loader tires and the SOB could hit 30mph on a flat out run. It was bad ass.
 

RegularGuy

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Why keep the transfer case and differentials at all if the goal is 300+ miles of range?
The goal isn't 300+ miles of range, the expectation is. Sizing the battery such that the truck has the same performance it does now, the truck should have 300+ miles of range. It's a calculated number based on the vehicles drag and rolling resistance. For the sake of simplicity while retaining the vehicles functionality, the motor is being attached to the transfercase. In doing so, I don't need custom axles, drive shafts, etc.

On to my progress, I've started with the modifications which I'd like regardless of my final setup. Last week I installed my new rotors, pads, and shoes. As it would turn out, the aerostar drums require a smaller hub than is found on my 31 spline, currently, I'm looking into having them opened up. EBC pads and rotors on the front, semi metallic shoes on the rear to match.

Having found some wet roads, I confirmed that with the key on, engine off, the abs still works. Whichever computer in there controlling the brakes, doesn't care if it sees engine rpms... That's good for me as that means I won't have to mess with the abs.

Next up is a full length underskirt, I picked up some stainless steel sheeting from work about 2 months back and will be constructing some aero components. Currently, the truck is in need of some rust prevention, so that'll all happen at the same time. Underskirting is one of those things that should get me better mpg in the meantime, while I'm working out which electronic components to use
 

dvdswan

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bobbywalter

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This application.

No way the labor of under skirting can help enough to justify..


A 4 cyl 2wd setup with full float lockouts out back. And electric drive up front seems the best config for diy.
 

stmitch

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The goal isn't 300+ miles of range, the expectation is. Sizing the battery such that the truck has the same performance it does now, the truck should have 300+ miles of range. It's a calculated number based on the vehicles drag and rolling resistance. For the sake of simplicity while retaining the vehicles functionality, the motor is being attached to the transfercase. In doing so, I don't need custom axles, drive shafts, etc.
Are you willing to share some details on the calculations and where you're getting your info for factors like drag and rolling resistance (stock and modified)? Are you doing CFD analysis or something to get your estimates? Google says that a Ranger has a CoD of 0.4. Most long range EVs are in the .2-.3 range (with EV cars generally having less drag than EV CUVs). The Ranger certainly can be improved with some aero work, but it's still going to have a very vertical windshield, decent frontal area, a vertical trailing edge on the cab and bed, and more ride height to overcome. Plus things like leaf springs and a stick axle hanging out inducing drag. Then add mechanical losses from differentials, and you could need quite a bit more battery capacity than something like a Model 3 or Chevy Bolt to get 300+ miles of range. Are you expecting close to 100kwh? Where are those batteries going to come from, and how will they be configured to fit in a truck that still has an electric motor/transfer case/driveshaft(s) and stick axle running down the center?
I'm not trying to shoot holes in your plan. I think it's a pretty cool idea, and you've obviously given it some thought. I'm just really interested in details of your planning process and how it might come together.

Next up is a full length underskirt, I picked up some stainless steel sheeting from work about 2 months back and will be constructing some aero components. Currently, the truck is in need of some rust prevention, so that'll all happen at the same time. Underskirting is one of those things that should get me better mpg in the meantime, while I'm working out which electronic components to use
Would love to see pics of this process when you get to it. In my 2wd truck, the engine crossmember hangs at about the same height as my low profile trans crossmember which makes a flat floor a bit easier. But there are still obstacles, especially in the rear (springs, driveshaft, axle). I'm really interested in seeing how the lower hanging crossmembers of your 4WD truck impact the design, and what (if anything) you decide to do in the rear.
 
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RegularGuy

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Whichever motor ends up being selected for the project, it should fit within the transmission tunnel of the vehicle. End torque figures preferably being the same as what the original engine puts out after gear reduction. That leaves me then, with space under the bed where the exhaust and fuel tank sat, and in the engine bay itself. The electric motor won't weigh nearly as much as the engine/transmission they're replacing so it then becomes a matter of figuring out how much 'stuff' to put over the front axle so the tires don't wear funny. Overall, battery placement isn't of terrible concern to me.

The bit that's concerning is aero, and friction. Comparing to the awd tesla, I'm working with a disadvantage of 12.7 cda vs tesla with an estimated 5.1 cda, and presumably a similar difference in rolling resistance between the differentials and tires. I can't really do anything about rolling resistance unless I did something like that axle mounted motor, so instead I'm starting with flattening out underside.

I anticipate the project will be using a 400-800v motor which puts me in a difficult spot when attempting to select a battery pack. The inexpensive of the tesla modules putting out approximately 25v per module. Limited more by weight than space however, my battery selection will be based upon what (assuming it's affordably priced) is the most energy dense by weight. Onto my calculation, the only real advantage an ev ranger build could really have over a tesla is weight. Based on the added battery mass, and powertrain weight reduction, the ranger should weight slightly less than a model 3. My calculation of 300+ is based on that it's reasonable to expect my build to travel at least half the distance of the model 3 using comparable electronics. The model 3 was meanwhile recently tested with a new battery which got the vehicle 752 miles of range. With a weight capacity of just under 900lbs, it stands to reason that while they likely added weight to the vehicle, they couldn't have doubled the battery's mass in order to achieve such a range.

While this project is something I'm actively working on, it's still going take me at least a few years to get it completed... Knowing that, I plan on using some of this tech nearing release, batteries and motors being the two primary items of interest
 

bobbywalter

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Definitely.....those of us willing to put the square pegs in round holes ..

We at least can benefit from the adaptions of the next batch of technology ..

I want skid steer and turn table steering something aweful for trail riding......
 

bobbywalter

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I know that sounds silly .... But dang it....it's been nearly 20 years..


Come awnz hub motors
 

stmitch

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Whichever motor ends up being selected for the project, it should fit within the transmission tunnel of the vehicle. End torque figures preferably being the same as what the original engine puts out after gear reduction. That leaves me then, with space under the bed where the exhaust and fuel tank sat, and in the engine bay itself. The electric motor won't weigh nearly as much as the engine/transmission they're replacing so it then becomes a matter of figuring out how much 'stuff' to put over the front axle so the tires don't wear funny. Overall, battery placement isn't of terrible concern to me.

The bit that's concerning is aero, and friction. Comparing to the awd tesla, I'm working with a disadvantage of 12.7 cda vs tesla with an estimated 5.1 cda, and presumably a similar difference in rolling resistance between the differentials and tires. I can't really do anything about rolling resistance unless I did something like that axle mounted motor, so instead I'm starting with flattening out underside.

I anticipate the project will be using a 400-800v motor which puts me in a difficult spot when attempting to select a battery pack. The inexpensive of the tesla modules putting out approximately 25v per module. Limited more by weight than space however, my battery selection will be based upon what (assuming it's affordably priced) is the most energy dense by weight. Onto my calculation, the only real advantage an ev ranger build could really have over a tesla is weight. Based on the added battery mass, and powertrain weight reduction, the ranger should weight slightly less than a model 3. My calculation of 300+ is based on that it's reasonable to expect my build to travel at least half the distance of the model 3 using comparable electronics. The model 3 was meanwhile recently tested with a new battery which got the vehicle 752 miles of range. With a weight capacity of just under 900lbs, it stands to reason that while they likely added weight to the vehicle, they couldn't have doubled the battery's mass in order to achieve such a range.

While this project is something I'm actively working on, it's still going take me at least a few years to get it completed... Knowing that, I plan on using some of this tech nearing release, batteries and motors being the two primary items of interest
I actually posted that exact Model S article yesterday in another thread. Their hybrid battery approach is an intriguing concept (one for shorter range daily use that can withstand frequent charging/discharging and another for infrequent, long range use).

I guess I was expecting the plan for key components to be a little more fleshed out than it currently is. Temperature control in the batteries is critical. OEMs spend tons of time getting temperature managment just right, and getting the battery management software perfected (percentage of battery usable, charging/discharging rates, etc). What's the plan for these things in your case? Splitting the battery into multiple locations seems like it would make cooling harder (and require custom battery enclosures). Maybe GM's Ultium packs could be an option here? That's why so many EV swaps use the original battery packs and controls. If you're DIYing all of this by spec'ing your own components and potentially having multiple small packs things get significantly more difficult. What about HVAC? Will the truck have heat? Resistance, or heat pump style?
 
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Components currently price me out of this build being feasible for what I'm needing from it. That's the main reason for waiting to get together a list of specifics. At the very minimum however, the new cells should kill the used market price of the 18650 cells, which should have some effect on the rest of the battery market. In the meantime, things like electric brake boosters, powersteering, etc, aren't going to change drastically.
I see separating the batteries into different zones simply being a necessity, the weight over the front axle needs to remain approximately the same or else it'll become difficult to get a proper alignment without making suspension changes.
Cooling requirements end up being related more directly to the components used than the vehicle being converted to electric. One of the big advantages in changing cell dimensions/chemistries being operating temperature and heat creation. Some cells simply run cooler than others... Until I know for sure which one I'm using (which is based almost entirely on weight and price) I won't know whether my existing radiator space will be sufficient. As is, I'll be upgrading at least to an all aluminum rad without a trans cooler. Shaving down the fan shroud, I'll presumably be able to fit a thicker rad into the existing mount and install an appropriately sized electric fan in the shaved oe shroud. One thing I hope to do better than 'big electric' is actually insulate the batteries. A crazy amount of power goes into keeping the batteries warm in the winter, so assuming I have the space to do so, I'd like to better control when the batteries are dissipating heat.
For the brakes, I've settled on the vacuum-less booster made by Bosch (p/n 97356684) it's found on the new Accords and Tesla model 3. SuperfastMatt has a nice video on it here. What makes this interesting to me while the truck remains an ICE vehicle is that the brake assistance is adjustable.
Powersteering will likely come about in the form of the popular prius steering column. For a relatively low price, you can get the column itself and an aftermarket chip that'll restore the variable steering assist. Otherwise, the column will instead be in limp mode, providing the same amount of assist regardless of vehicle speed.

As part of the drivetrain portion of the build, the AC will be modified such that a motor takes the place of the electric clutch, wiring to the clutch instead goes to a relay which will supply sufficient power to this small motor.
Heating will hopefully continue to use the existing heat exchanger as a prewarmer, hopefully leaving enough room for a resistance heater being installed in line after the heat exchanger. It would be wired such that it makes up for any addition heat requested on top of what the heat exchanger was able to provide.


awnz hub motors
There's at least one out there, although they're pricy. Hub motors however, are unlikely to ever become popular for anything smaller than commercial vehicles. The unsprung mass causes exponentially more issues the lighter the vehicle. That being said, sometimes that mass is preferable, Jaguar went away from inboard brake disks due to a variety of other issues that popped up between maintance difficulties, and inconsistent brake application once the cv's got worn/ broken
 

bobbywalter

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Components currently price me out of this build being feasible for what I'm needing from it. That's the main reason for waiting to get together a list of specifics. At the very minimum however, the new cells should kill the used market price of the 18650 cells, which should have some effect on the rest of the battery market. In the meantime, things like electric brake boosters, powersteering, etc, aren't going to change drastically.
I see separating the batteries into different zones simply being a necessity, the weight over the front axle needs to remain approximately the same or else it'll become difficult to get a proper alignment without making suspension changes.
Cooling requirements end up being related more directly to the components used than the vehicle being converted to electric. One of the big advantages in changing cell dimensions/chemistries being operating temperature and heat creation. Some cells simply run cooler than others... Until I know for sure which one I'm using (which is based almost entirely on weight and price) I won't know whether my existing radiator space will be sufficient. As is, I'll be upgrading at least to an all aluminum rad without a trans cooler. Shaving down the fan shroud, I'll presumably be able to fit a thicker rad into the existing mount and install an appropriately sized electric fan in the shaved oe shroud. One thing I hope to do better than 'big electric' is actually insulate the batteries. A crazy amount of power goes into keeping the batteries warm in the winter, so assuming I have the space to do so, I'd like to better control when the batteries are dissipating heat.
For the brakes, I've settled on the vacuum-less booster made by Bosch (p/n 97356684) it's found on the new Accords and Tesla model 3. SuperfastMatt has a nice video on it here. What makes this interesting to me while the truck remains an ICE vehicle is that the brake assistance is adjustable.
Powersteering will likely come about in the form of the popular prius steering column. For a relatively low price, you can get the column itself and an aftermarket chip that'll restore the variable steering assist. Otherwise, the column will instead be in limp mode, providing the same amount of assist regardless of vehicle speed.

As part of the drivetrain portion of the build, the AC will be modified such that a motor takes the place of the electric clutch, wiring to the clutch instead goes to a relay which will supply sufficient power to this small motor.
Heating will hopefully continue to use the existing heat exchanger as a prewarmer, hopefully leaving enough room for a resistance heater being installed in line after the heat exchanger. It would be wired such that it makes up for any addition heat requested on top of what the heat exchanger was able to provide.



There's at least one out there, although they're pricy. Hub motors however, are unlikely to ever become popular for anything smaller than commercial vehicles. The unsprung mass causes exponentially more issues the lighter the vehicle. That being said, sometimes that mass is preferable, Jaguar went away from inboard brake disks due to a variety of other issues that popped up between maintance difficulties, and inconsistent brake application once the cv's got worn/ broken


Awd and diy hybrid capacity for 10g....


Makes me want a Honda hotrod.
 

stmitch

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I see separating the batteries into different zones simply being a necessity, the weight over the front axle needs to remain approximately the same or else it'll become difficult to get a proper alignment without making suspension changes.
That's where I think having as much available real estate between the frame rails as possible would be extremely beneficial for a swap like this. But that would very likely mean losing the transfer case and stock differentials. But the batteries would be low in the chassis, centrally located for more even distribution, protected from impacts, and potentially all in one connected pack. You've likely considered all of this, I'm just trying to make the case that the final product might be nicer, and it might be easier in certain aspects of the build too.

Cooling requirements end up being related more directly to the components used than the vehicle being converted to electric. One of the big advantages in changing cell dimensions/chemistries being operating temperature and heat creation. Some cells simply run cooler than others... Until I know for sure which one I'm using (which is based almost entirely on weight and price) I won't know whether my existing radiator space will be sufficient. As is, I'll be upgrading at least to an all aluminum rad without a trans cooler. Shaving down the fan shroud, I'll presumably be able to fit a thicker rad into the existing mount and install an appropriately sized electric fan in the shaved oe shroud. One thing I hope to do better than 'big electric' is actually insulate the batteries. A crazy amount of power goes into keeping the batteries warm in the winter, so assuming I have the space to do so, I'd like to better control when the batteries are dissipating heat.
97-02 Explorers had radiators that shared side tanks with Rangers but were twice the thickness. Not sure if they're exactly what you're looking for but it's worth a bit of investigation. I dropped one right into my 2000 3.0 truck. Along the same lines, 01+ Rangers with the 2.3L Duratec engine had factory electric cooling fans and shrouds that fit the aforementioned radiator with minimal trimming.
 

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