Faulty Fuel Injector causing mis at startup?

[rusty ol ranger]

Running 20w50 thru a weak pump is only going to kill it faster.

5psi is enough to keep things from getting destroyed...but your almost 20psi lower then spec at 2000rpm. You have an issue.

 

[RonD]

General "rule of thumb" is 10psi oil pressure per 1,000rpm on an older engine
So at idle 700rpm, 7psi
At 2,000rpm 20psi
3,000rpm 30psi

Up to about 60psi, depending on the engine over 60psi can kill the bearings as fast as no oil
Oil flows out of bearings under 60psi, when it gets higher then it can SPRAY out of bearings, so mixes in air which DRIES out the bearing surfaces, which causes overheating and failure

On a newer engine oil pressure can be 15psi per 1,000rpm, because bearing gaps are still small, not because pump is better

Remember oil pressure is the oil the engine IS NOT USING at any given time
But you need a minimum pressure to overcome gravity at the top end of engine

 

[eightynine4x4]

General "rule of thumb" is 10psi oil pressure per 1,000rpm on an older engine
So at idle 700rpm, 7psi
At 2,000rpm 20psi
3,000rpm 30psi

Up to about 60psi, depending on the engine over 60psi can kill the bearings as fast as no oil
Oil flows out of bearings under 60psi, when it gets higher then it can SPRAY out of bearings, so mixes in air which DRIES out the bearing surfaces, which causes overheating and failure

On a newer engine oil pressure can be 15psi per 1,000rpm, because bearing gaps are still small, not because pump is better

Remember oil pressure is the oil the engine IS NOT USING at any given time
But you need a minimum pressure to overcome gravity at the top end of engine

Im assuming those numbers are theoretically measured at the bearings (used oil) and not down at the sensor (unused oil back pressure).

So in your opinion does a 2.9 pump that measures at the sensor location 12-15 PSI warm idle and 38 PSI warm 2K sound like it’s under-powering? As noted by @rusty_ol_ranger the Ford spec for 2K RPM is 55 PSI.

 

[RonD]

No, thats at the main oil passage, where the "sensor" is

No, that 12-38psi is fine

Ford switched to oil pressure switches because of this debate, lol, well actually to stop customers from coming in with complaints about low oil pressure on a "real" gauge

"Spec says......................"
And an engineer's word is gospel, every time right.................."hey, its on paper.........must be true"
And when the internet started it got even worse, "but I read..........."

 

[eightynine4x4]

No, thats at the main oil passage, where the "sensor" is

No, that 12-38psi is fine

Ford switched to oil pressure switches because of this debate, lol, well actually to stop customers from coming in with complaints about low oil pressure on a "real" gauge

"Spec says......................"
And an engineer's word is gospel, every time right.................."hey, its on paper.........must be true"
And when the internet started it got even worse, "but I read..........."

Maybe Ford should have put a [NORMAL] bracket range on their oil pressure meter like they did their Temp gauge! May have allowed for some flexibility of interpretation.

In any case, I’m still stumped diagnosing why my 2.9 is so gosh darn clanging around as it warms up and then can be quite fine once at operating temp. If you scroll back to post #107 (page 8) you’ll see the 1 minute edited video i made of the whole warmup sounds of the engine over span of 15 minutes. By the end, it’s almost quiet and sounds decent like a very lightweight faint ticking. At the start, it’s loud and the RPMs waver like a circus. Trying to figure out if it’s oil flow issue or mechanical issue. The fact that it dissapears over warmup leads me to believe it’s an oil flow/pump issue. But oil pressure tests fine I guess.

 

[eightynine4x4]

Here’s the passenger side valve cover opened up. Doing drives side shortly. Not sure yet what to inspect in general but am already doing gaskets and cleaning (and maybe painting) the covers so figure I can check something in here regarding mechanicals..

 

[RonD]

Have all spark plugs out and turn the crank manually to check the lash on each rocker, to see if any were loose

Rotate crank and watch the valve you want to adjust, you can easily see when it opens and closes so half way between those is 0 lift from cam
Loosen hex nut until rocker is loose, then tighten until is not, thats 0 lash, now tighten hex head 1 and 3/4 turns more to pre-load lifter
Repeat 11 more times
Some use 1 and 1/2 turns, up to you but all have to be the same, I suggest 1 and 3/4 on older engines

You can also do several valves at a time based on firing order and crank position, you can look that up

 

[eightynine4x4]

Have all spark plugs out and turn the crank manually to check the lash on each rocker, to see if any were loose

Rotate crank and watch the valve you want to adjust, you can easily see when it opens and closes so half way between those is 0 lift from cam
Loosen hex nut until rocker is loose, then tighten until is not, thats 0 lash, now tighten hex head 1 and 3/4 turns more to pre-load lifter
Repeat 11 more times
Some use 1 and 1/2 turns, up to you but all have to be the same, I suggest 1 and 3/4 on older engines

You can also do several valves at a time based on firing order and crank position, you can look that up

Ok I’ll dig in with this.
Out of curiosity.. would an engine that’s got loose / too-much valve lash be a clammer when cold and then tighten / quiet when hot?

 

[RonD]

Would be hard to say

Your symptom is the opposite of what would be expected so its an anomaly, a unique problem

Like having the same tire being flat every day
Having the tire checked and no leaks but it is always flat the next day
Put on a new tire, same thing
Swap front tire to back, same position goes flat
????? WTF
Turns out a neighbour is letting the air out every night

"something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified"

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I dont usually disagree with ron but i still say the oiling is the issue.

Spec is 55 yes, and i get that spec isnt always what it ahould exactly be...but youre almost 20psi under at 2000rpm. If you were like 48-50...id be inclined to agree with ron.

 

[RonD]

I don't know, that "10psi per 1,000rpm" has been around before my time, when my grandfather said it was the first time I heard it
And it is a minimum, i.e. back in the day when you were getting under 10psi per 1,000rpm it was time for a rebuild

15psi per 1,000, as said, would be normal on low mile engines

But any back pressure means unneeded oil is backing up in the main passage, just needs to be above 4psi to over come gravity to oil the top of engine



Now it could be you have some narrowed oil passages for the lifters, just dirty coating, or dirty lifters
And they make a racket on cold start with slower flowing thicker oil
As the oil warms up they get better flow so less racket

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I don't know, that "10psi per 1,000rpm" has been around before my time, when my grandfather said it was the first time I heard it
And it is a minimum, i.e. back in the day when you were getting under 10psi per 1,000rpm it was time for a rebuild

15psi per 1,000, as said, would be normal on low mile engines

But any back pressure means unneeded oil is backing up in the main passage, just needs to be above 4psi to over come gravity to oil the top of engine



Now it could be you have some narrowed oil passages for the lifters, just dirty coating, or dirty lifters
And they make a racket on cold start with slower flowing thicker oil
As the oil warms up they get better flow so less racket

Ive heard the 10psi for every 1000rpm for years and years to...but it also is from a time before hydraulic lifters that require oil pressure to operate properly.

 

[eightynine4x4]

Well, I’m happy to do both.. check / adjust potentially loose lashings, see how it performs, and then install the HV pump and see how it performs.
The pump install is looking a bit rough though..
Does anyone know if doing the engine prop-up method on a 4x4 is worse than on a 2WD? Worse clearance for pan work?

On a side note, I already have to redo both axle drop brackets soon so it’s a shame that process doesn’t give me full access to the engine pan. I took a glance, haven’t evaluated extensively yet, but it appears that the engine crossmember would need to come out too. But, if I kept the engine mounted to frame, and undid the crossmember rivets, it seems like with the axles already dangling that that could give me total access and the pan and pump would be easy at that point. But i guess that’s more work than just propping up engine and dealing with the squeeze. That is, assuming it’s even possible on 4x4..

 

[RonD]

Problem is getting the oil pan off, you are not just replacing the oil pan gasket, which is a pain, the pan must come off all the way to replace the oil pump
Which usually means the transmission must come off

Remember, the oil pick up is at the bottom of the lowest part of the oil pan
So the rear of the pan must drop down and back(where transmission is an issue) and then the front of the pan must also be able to come down low enough to clear the oil pickup as it slides back

Pretty much pulling the engine is needed, or disconnecting trans and lifting engine up 8" or so in the engine bay
It won't lift up more than 2 or 3" with transmission attached as it hits the tunnel/firewall

 

[eightynine4x4]

Problem is getting the oil pan off, you are not just replacing the oil pan gasket, which is a pain, the pan must come off all the way to replace the oil pump
Which usually means the transmission must come off

Remember, the oil pick up is at the bottom of the lowest part of the oil pan
So the rear of the pan must drop down and back(where transmission is an issue) and then the front of the pan must also be able to come down low enough to clear the oil pickup as it slides back

Pretty much pulling the engine is needed, or disconnecting trans and lifting engine up 8" or so in the engine bay
It won't lift up more than 2 or 3" with transmission attached as it hits the tunnel/firewall

All makes sense. I just wonder why in the Haynes there is a short section for doing both the oil pan and pump and the instructions are to lift the engine in bay and disconnecting transmission isn’t part of it. Maybe they’re just wrong!

But if pulling it is required, it’ll have to wait until I do the rebuild. I will only have logistical setups for this one time and will do the whole project.

So its more sensible to do the valve adjustment attempt first.

I found videos like this below where fellas are adjusting live in running engine based on sound of tapping. Back off the nut until some tapping starts, tighten it back in until it disappears, go more in a certain amount. Man that sure is appealing. Is this possible in the 2.9? Would be pretty amazing to have immediate information about each valve, and to be able to in real time potentially remove the taps.

( 4:34 for adjustment )