Faulty Fuel Injector causing mis at startup?

[rusty ol ranger]

Thats on a 72 302 with im pretty sure solid lifters.

Not sure thatll work on an engine with hydraulic lifters that are actually supposed to be non adjustable lol.

Im not sure but you might be able to pull unhook the trans mount from the trans crossmember, and slide the engine and trans forward and up to give you enough clearence to get the pan off. Maybe pull radiator too.

Mines 2wd though and im not sure how different the clearence is on a 4wd

 

[eightynine4x4]

Thats on a 72 302 with im pretty sure solid lifters.

Not sure thatll work on an engine with hydraulic lifters that are actually supposed to be non adjustable lol.

Im not sure but you might be able to pull unhook the trans mount from the trans crossmember, and slide the engine and trans forward and up to give you enough clearence to get the pan off. Maybe pull radiator too.

Mines 2wd though and im not sure how different the clearence is on a 4wd

They are actually hydraulic! I know this is classic YouTube Mechanic certification level, but I’m curious what @RonD might think of that video as opposed to doing it cold and not running with TDC methods.

I ended up down that rabbit hole because I was wondering about adjusting these things at Op Temp instead of cold. Then I found mention of folks doing it running.

In video, when he first adjusts, he loosens out until audible taps start and mentions giving the hydraulics a few seconds to settle into place in case the tapping changes, then moving forward with turning back in until tapping stops, then tightening further down a predetermined amount.

If one were to draw the parallel here for the TDC approach on 2.9, I suppose the “tightening until tapping stops” bit replaces the 1 turn segment of the total 1 1/2 turn, and then the extra 1/2 turn completes the task. Or per @RonD this could be 3/4 to help compensate for engine age. So if running, tighten until tapping stops then tighten extra 3/4 turn.

Anyways, considering the clammer in my engine and the desperation at this point, I’m considering cutting 12 holes in the valve covers that can get covered/plugged after adjustments are made. That way this wouldn’t have to be a total mess. Even if not ever doing this procedure at all, having 12 holes would allow for not having to remove the valve covers were I wanting to do any adjustments a second time, cold or not. Only challenge would be measuring correctly for the cuts.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

They are actually hydraulic! I know this is classic YouTube Mechanic certification level, but I’m curious what @RonD might think of that video as opposed to doing it cold and not running with TDC methods.

I ended up down that rabbit hole because I was wondering about adjusting these things at Op Temp instead of cold. Then I found mention of folks doing it running.

In video, when he first adjusts, he loosens out until audible taps start and mentions giving the hydraulics a few seconds to settle into place in case the tapping changes, then moving forward with turning back in until tapping stops, then tightening further down a predetermined amount.

If one were to draw the parallel here for the TDC approach on 2.9, I suppose the “tightening until tapping stops” bit replaces the 1 turn segment of the total 1 1/2 turn, and then the extra 1/2 turn completes the task. Or per @RonD this could be 3/4 to help compensate for engine age. So if running, tighten until tapping stops then tighten extra 3/4 turn.

Anyways, considering the clammer in my engine and the desperation at this point, I’m considering cutting 12 holes in the valve covers that can get covered/plugged after adjustments are made. That way this wouldn’t have to be a total mess. Even if not ever doing this procedure at all, having 12 holes would allow for not having to remove the valve covers were I wanting to do any adjustments a second time, cold or not. Only challenge would be measuring correctly for the cuts.

I wouldnt cut your valve covers.

If, big if, adjusting them works chances are you wont have to do it again for a long time.

Ive seen them adjusted that way before, but it was on solid lifter motors. I could see it maybe working as you are collapsing the lifter so it takes less oil to fill it and make it do what needs done. Give it a shot but you may make things worse.

But either way its kind of a band aid on a shotgun wound.

 

[eightynine4x4]

I wouldnt cut your valve covers.

If, big if, adjusting them works chances are you wont have to do it again for a long time.

Ive seen them adjusted that way before, but it was on solid lifter motors. I could see it maybe working as you are collapsing the lifter so it takes less oil to fill it and make it do what needs done. Give it a shot but you may make things worse.

But either way its kind of a band aid on a shotgun wound.

Yeah i agree. I'll skip cutting the covers. I'll mull over whether or not to give this running adjustment a shot. Maybe. Worst case is if it sounds worse than before (back at cold startup) I can then redo it cold with TDC method. Then once that's done i can close them up and not touch them again.
This is a bandaid before rebuilding the engine or at least the top end. The goal of the bandaid would be to avoid a catastrophic bashing of parts somewhere.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Yeah i agree. I'll skip cutting the covers. I'll mull over whether or not to give this running adjustment a shot. Maybe. Worst case is if it sounds worse than before (back at cold startup) I can then redo it cold with TDC method. Then once that's done i can close them up and not touch them again.
This is a bandaid before rebuilding the engine or at least the top end. The goal of the bandaid would be to avoid a catastrophic bashing of parts somewhere.

I think youll be surprised when you go to rebuild it. 2.9s have a very resiliant/stout bottom end. Id still go thru it while you have it out but ill lay money it wont need anything but a bit of freshning up.

 

[eightynine4x4]

I think youll be surprised when you go to rebuild it. 2.9s have a very resiliant/stout bottom end. Id still go thru it while you have it out but ill lay money it wont need anything but a bit of freshning up.

Gotcha! One thing I’ve been wondering about rebuild is… leaving engine mounted in place, i think I can pull all top end stuff out. But can you just keep going and pull all the bottom out too? Might sound counter intuitive to some but for my situation if that were possible it would be a huge help since I could do it incrementally without needing to bring in a full size lift or set up that kind of whole engine station somewhere.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Gotcha! One thing I’ve been wondering about rebuild is… leaving engine mounted in place, i think I can pull all top end stuff out. But can you just keep going and pull all the bottom out too? Might sound counter intuitive to some but for my situation if that were possible it would be a huge help since I could do it incrementally without needing to bring in a full size lift or set up that kind of whole engine station somewhere.

No you cant inframe a ranger like you can a semi or tractor.

You can rent a engine crane, last i checked a stand is only like 75 bucks. A 2.9 isnt heavy you dont need nothin fancy.

Plus even though its pry fine id still take the block in and have it checked, cleaned, and honed.

Oh and have the machine shop remove/install cam bearings. They are soft and easy to dick up.

 

[RonD]

I have had my set of rocker arm oil deflector clips for 30+ years, lol

And have adjusted rockers both ways, engine running is faster, thats about it, and can be messy if you are not careful

Unless you will be adjusting rockers on engines a lot just do it engine cold and engine off, one at a time

All you are doing is pre-loading hydraulic lifters, solid lifters are a little more finicky from thermal expansion, so usually should be done with parts heated up, i.e. engine running
Thermal expansion with hydraulic lifters is not going to effect performance all that much

 

[eightynine4x4]

Ok got it. It's interesting to consider the fact that these lifters aren't so thermally impacted as engine warms, because that further isolates the noise issue to being about things that ARE affected by temp a lot.
The only reason I'm still tempted to do this check/adjust while running is to be able to possibly witness / hear something live while adjusting a specific point, or just see that right away there's a visible issue.
That reminds me... is there any chance, at all, that something is tapping up into the inside of the valve covers? I was thinking about that so inspected the inside tops of the covers and did notice small circular markings about 1/4" diameter. Took a peek at the hardware under covers and didn't see anything that correlated that was that size circle other than than the rods themselves but those stay recessed as far as i know.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Ok got it. It's interesting to consider the fact that these lifters aren't so thermally impacted as engine warms, because that further isolates the noise issue to being about things that ARE affected by temp a lot.
The only reason I'm still tempted to do this check/adjust while running is to be able to possibly witness / hear something live while adjusting a specific point, or just see that right away there's a visible issue.
That reminds me... is there any chance, at all, that something is tapping up into the inside of the valve covers? I was thinking about that so inspected the inside tops of the covers and did notice small circular markings about 1/4" diameter. Took a peek at the hardware under covers and didn't see anything that correlated that was that size circle other than than the rods themselves but those stay recessed as far as i know.

If it was under the covers you would notice it cold or hot.

Thats why i told ya to check your oil pressure....cold oil is thick, which adds pressure, warm oil is thin, which decreases pressure.

 

[eightynine4x4]

If it was under the covers you would notice it cold or hot.

Thats why i told ya to check your oil pressure....cold oil is thick, which adds pressure, warm oil is thin, which decreases pressure.

Yep, that's what i was referring to.
Updated plan.. I'm going to do the cold TDC 1 3/4 lifter pre load adjustment first. Then i'm going to set up for mess containment and run the engine until it's warmed up while keeping an eye on oil loss) Then i'll get to watch some mechanics, and if anything is still ticking at op temp i will then at least start with a point of reference before just trying to make live adjustments right off the bat.
I'm not actually hopeful that if there is a valve ticking that I'll be able to solve it by tightening in the nut, and I would probably be setting myself up for disaster if I'm going to just keep tightening it down out of curiosity to see if i can clear the tick. But if i know i'm already starting at good spec, then I can limit myself as to how far past spec i can try tightening down...
Any thoughts on that? I suppose the real question is... is it possible that i need to tighten some of those hex nuts down further than usual, to compensate for something down in the valve train somewhere? And is that dangerous?
Like should i set a rule for myself... only try tightening 1 whole turn past the spec'd 1 3/4 turns, and then give up trying to clear that tick and just return it one turn back to spec? Or, do i have a lot of free play and can try tightening it a few extra turns just to see if tick clears?

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Yep, that's what i was referring to.
Updated plan.. I'm going to do the cold TDC 1 3/4 lifter pre load adjustment first. Then i'm going to set up for mess containment and run the engine until it's warmed up while keeping an eye on oil loss) Then i'll get to watch some mechanics, and if anything is still ticking at op temp i will then at least start with a point of reference before just trying to make live adjustments right off the bat.
I'm not actually hopeful that if there is a valve ticking that I'll be able to solve it by tightening in the nut, and I would probably be setting myself up for disaster if I'm going to just keep tightening it down out of curiosity to see if i can clear the tick. But if i know i'm already starting at good spec, then I can limit myself as to how far past spec i can try tightening down...
Any thoughts on that? I suppose the real question is... is it possible that i need to tighten some of those hex nuts down further than usual, to compensate for something down in the valve train somewhere? And is that dangerous?
Like should i set a rule for myself... only try tightening 1 whole turn past the spec'd 1 3/4 turns, and then give up trying to clear that tick and just return it one turn back to spec? Or, do i have a lot of free play and can try tightening it a few extra turns just to see if tick clears?

I would imagine the biggest worry about over torqueing would be a bent pushrod

 

[RonD]

After doing the 1 and 3/4 turn try turning the pushrod with your fingers, should be doable but very hard to turn
After doing a few you will know what it feels like
If a pushrod is easy to turn then you have a collapsed lifter on that valve
So it will be noisy until it can be pumped up a bit by oil but will always be a little noisy
NO, do not tighten it more, that valve would not close after startup and oil pressure

Diagram of a generic hydraulic lifer here: https://mooregoodink.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/15-Exploded.jpg

There is a spring in the bottom to hold lifter extend when there is no oil pressure, this is what applies pressure to the pushrod while you are doing the pre-load adjustment, and makes it hard to turn, but turnable
Can also be the check valve or bad piston in the lifter

Thermal expanse is the reason vehicle makers switched to hydraulic lifters
If you are building a racing engine or hotrod then you will know about thermal expansion and use solid lifters to get best power
AND you will also know the engine will be quite noisy on cold starts until you get thermal expansion and valve train quiets down

Hydraulic lifters should be quiet at cold start and quiet after thermal expansion with minimal loss of power

 

[eightynine4x4]

After doing the 1 and 3/4 turn try turning the pushrod with your fingers, should be doable but very hard to turn
After doing a few you will know what it feels like
If a pushrod is easy to turn then you have a collapsed lifter on that valve
So it will be noisy until it can be pumped up a bit by oil but will always be a little noisy
NO, do not tighten it more, that valve would not close after startup and oil pressure

Diagram of a generic hydraulic lifer here: https://mooregoodink.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/15-Exploded.jpg

There is a spring in the bottom to hold lifter extend when there is no oil pressure, this is what applies pressure to the pushrod while you are doing the pre-load adjustment, and makes it hard to turn, but turnable
Can also be the check valve or bad piston in the lifter

Thermal expanse is the reason vehicle makers switched to hydraulic lifters
If you are building a racing engine or hotrod then you will know about thermal expansion and use solid lifters to get best power
AND you will also know the engine will be quite noisy on cold starts until you get thermal expansion and valve train quiets down

Hydraulic lifters should be quiet at cold start and quiet after thermal expansion with minimal loss of power

Speaking of easy to turn....
When I first took off the covers, i was lightly touching around with just my hands to see if anything was loose.
One of the things i did, on just the drivers side, was touch the long skinny rods under the hex nuts, presumably those are the push rods, and i noticed that a few of them spun just by lightly turning them with two fingers. Like no resistance, i could turn them like spinning a chop stick. I didn't rotate them much, and returned them to their "position", but meant to inquire about this.
I did nothing else after that, just stepped away.
What does this mean? That it's likely that those lifters are collapsed? Or, that the system is just truly loose and needs to be tightened as I'm about to do? Or both?

 

[RonD]

Yes, those are the pushrods

Yes, either mis-adjusted or collapsed lifter

That's why the adjustment is set from 0 lash and then 1 and 3/4 turns, not based on pressure feedback from pushrod/lifter

Rotate the engine more and test other pushrods with valves closed, to see what the average "tightness" is on the pushrods