Elon musk.....


85_Ranger4x4

Forum Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Article Contributor
OTOTM Winner
TRS Banner 2010-2011
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
19,585
Reaction score
566
Points
113
Location
SW Iowa
Vehicle Year
1985
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
5.0
Transmission
Manual
On the used market, they trade for similar prices to the regular Fusions. I paid $16k for a 2 year old car with 23k miles from a dealer. But to your point, the .gov has a handy comparison tool, so here's how the most fuel efficient all gasoline Fusion, the hybrid Fusion, and the PHEV Fusion break down:
It was kind of an redundant question.

So according to the .gov site you pay $12k more for a Fusion Energi to save $2500 over 5 years as compared to a normal Fusion? That doesn't pencil out very good to me.

A new Fusion Energi on Ford's website starts at $34k, base gas car starts at $22k.
 


Rock Auto 5% Discount Code: 248EE46702D889 Expires: October 1, 2019

Dirtman

Well-known member
EMT / Paramedic
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
2,240
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Location
Over there --->
Vehicle Year
2009
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
2.3 (4 Cylinder)
Engine Size
466.63 teaspoons.
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
So friggin big!
My credo
Give me money.
Makes sense to me... in 24 years you would have saved enough to break even. :icon_rofl:
 

stmitch

March 2011 STOTM Winner
MTOTM Winner
2011 Truck of The Year
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
1,673
Reaction score
37
Points
48
Location
Central Indiana
Vehicle Year
2000
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Manual
It was kind of an redundant question.

So according to the .gov site you pay $12k more for a Fusion Energi to save $2500 over 5 years as compared to a normal Fusion? That doesn't pencil out very good to me.

A new Fusion Energi on Ford's website starts at $34k, base gas car starts at $22k.
If we're buying new, the PHEV car is eligible for a $4007 federal tax credit, and potentially state tax credits as well which can bring the initial purchase price closer to the gas model by at least 1/3. The Energi models are only available in SE trim or higher. Looks like the gas SE Fusion starts at $27k, so the PHEV stuff adds about 7k price difference to a comparable gas Fusion. Subtract the federal tax credit and it's a $3k difference.

The calculations also assumes that you drive the same cycle as the rating. If you drive more short trips and use the ICE less, the payback is shortened. If you drive more than 15k annually, have cheaper than average electricity, or more expensive than average gas, the payback period is shortened too.

This is drifting away from the topic, so the point is that everybody has to do the math for their specific situation using their specific variables to determine how viable an EV might be, and what kind.
 
Last edited:

don4331

Active member
V8 Engine Swap
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
736
Reaction score
25
Points
28
Location
Calgary, AB
Vehicle Year
1999
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
V8
Engine Size
5.3
Transmission
Automatic
Somewhat redundant response as I type too slow:

What Elon has done is made cost of EV close enough to ICE that debate is now possible. (Un)fortunately, he has had to be a little over the top to make any progress.

20 years ago, Ford released the Ranger EV (Ranger content). The 95 Ah NiMH battery weighed ~1,100 lbs and cost ~$40k while lasting ~3 years. With those numbers, EV wasn’t worth owning.
Today’s Li-ion battery in Tesla model 3 weighs ~1,050lbs for 75 Ah Li-ion, while costing $7k and lasting >7 years.

The average price of kWh of electricity in US is ~$0.13; so Model 3 is costing ~$45/1,000miles or $675/yr based on 15k driving. Ford Taurus (to use a roughly equivalent car) uses 53gals/1,000miles, AAA’s average gas cost today is $2.80/gal, so Taurus costs ~$150/1,000 miles or $2,225/yr. Tesla Model 3 costs $35,5k, Taurus SEL AWD costs $32.8k. You pay off the cost delta in fuel before a 2 year lease is up; ignoring gov't grants.

Peak load on grid happens at ~6 pm, large number of people plugging in at night will just average load. Note: Everyone isn’t going to get EV overnight, so utilities will have time to add generating capacity.

p.s. Natural gas is petroleum product. And we’re doing to need petroleum products for lubricants, and in industrial processes (plastics, etc). So we’re not putting petroleumjunkie out of work with electric cars.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Forum Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Article Contributor
OTOTM Winner
TRS Banner 2010-2011
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
19,585
Reaction score
566
Points
113
Location
SW Iowa
Vehicle Year
1985
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
5.0
Transmission
Manual
If we're buying new, the PHEV car is eligible for a $4007 federal tax credit, and potentially state tax credits as well which can bring the initial purchase price closer to the gas model by at least 1/3. The Energi models are only available in SE trim or higher. Looks like the gas SE Fusion starts at $27k, so the PHEV stuff adds about 7k price difference to a comparable gas Fusion. Subtract the federal tax credit and it's a $3k difference.
Wonder who pays for the govt tax credits get the pricing within gunshot distance of a regular car?
 

stmitch

March 2011 STOTM Winner
MTOTM Winner
2011 Truck of The Year
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
1,673
Reaction score
37
Points
48
Location
Central Indiana
Vehicle Year
2000
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Manual
Wonder who pays for the govt tax credits get the pricing within gunshot distance of a regular car?
The same people that fund low income tax credits, and subsidize agriculture and the oil/natural gas industry, and bailed out the auto makers, and pay for education, and fund defense, etc.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Forum Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Article Contributor
OTOTM Winner
TRS Banner 2010-2011
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
19,585
Reaction score
566
Points
113
Location
SW Iowa
Vehicle Year
1985
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
5.0
Transmission
Manual
The same people that fund low income tax credits, and subsidize agriculture and the oil/natural gas industry, and bailed out the auto makers, and pay for education, and fund defense, etc.
As long as it makes them happy, that is the main thing I guess.

I do rank food and defense above electric cars though. Oil is good too since pretty much every newer vehicle at least has a lot of oil based material in it.

IMO the automaker bail out was a joke since they failed anyway.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
EMT / Paramedic
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
2,240
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Location
Over there --->
Vehicle Year
2009
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
2.3 (4 Cylinder)
Engine Size
466.63 teaspoons.
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
So friggin big!
My credo
Give me money.
Wait... the automaker buyout was a joke? I thought every tax payer owned 51% of GM now?

There goes my retirement plan!
 

85_Ranger4x4

Forum Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Article Contributor
OTOTM Winner
TRS Banner 2010-2011
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
19,585
Reaction score
566
Points
113
Location
SW Iowa
Vehicle Year
1985
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
5.0
Transmission
Manual
Wait... the automaker buyout was a joke? I thought every tax payer owned 51% of GM now?

There goes my retirement plan!
I think the company that emerged from bankruptcy paid most of if not all that back.
 

Uncle Gump

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Messages
1,002
Reaction score
292
Points
83
Location
Plano IL
Vehicle Year
2006
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
4.0L
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
4WD
My credo
Lead, Follow or get out of my way
it also paid for half of my new "green" rooftop HVAC unit... God Bless America
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
EMT / Paramedic
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
2,240
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Location
Over there --->
Vehicle Year
2009
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
2.3 (4 Cylinder)
Engine Size
466.63 teaspoons.
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
So friggin big!
My credo
Give me money.
I think the company that emerged from bankruptcy paid most of if not all that back.
Then wheres my check! I know holden never paid a dime back in australia as they bailed them out too and have basically just packed up shop there...
 

stmitch

March 2011 STOTM Winner
MTOTM Winner
2011 Truck of The Year
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
1,673
Reaction score
37
Points
48
Location
Central Indiana
Vehicle Year
2000
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Manual
Nobody is ever completely happy with the way that government spends our money. We all want our taxes to be lower, but we want great schools and clean air/water, and smooth safe streets too. We all selfishly wish that the things that are important to us would get tons of funding, while the things that aren't important to us are just seen as wasteful spending. The US is massive, and diverse with tons of different environments and 300 million people from around the globe. So they fund a little of everything, and sometimes funding goes to things we support and sometimes it goes to things we don't support. You can't make everybody happy all the time, and you can't make a single case apply to everybody.

Personally, I have no problems at all with doing things that will make the planet a nicer, cleaner, healthier place to live and grow better crops. And EVs should reduce the demand for oil, allowing it to be used for things other than propulsion in our cars and trucks.
 

Bird76Mojo

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,438
Reaction score
306
Points
83
Location
Toledo, il.
Vehicle Year
2001 & 1987
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0 - 5.0
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
4" Superlift
Tire Size
33"
My credo
Good enough
The taxpayers LOST money on the bailouts no matter how you slice it. Everyone should be f'n terrified that we've allowed our government to nationalize yet more industries. You have to know what that leads to...

CompanyInvestedSold ForProfit/LossDate Bailout Ended
GM$51.0 billion$39.7 billion-$11.3 billionDec. 9, 2013
GMAC (Ally)$17.2 billion$19.6 billion+$2.4 billionDec. 18, 2014
Chrysler$12.5 billion$11.2 billion-$1.3 billionMay 2011
TOTAL$80.7 billion$70.5 billion- $10.2 billion


One thing I didn't see listed in this discussion is how individual states are treating EV auto owners. Illinois is looking to rake those owners over the coals, because they're "not paying their fair share" of gasoline taxes.. Of course, the state is also looking to double the current gasoline tax to make up for lost revenue.

Let's face it, we're ALL economic slaves to our government. Don't believe me? Stop paying taxes on things you personally produced and profited from. Prison will be like a mini-vacation!

 

don4331

Active member
V8 Engine Swap
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
736
Reaction score
25
Points
28
Location
Calgary, AB
Vehicle Year
1999
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
V8
Engine Size
5.3
Transmission
Automatic
One thing I didn't see listed in this discussion is how individual states are treating EV auto owners. Illinois is looking to rake those owners over the coals, because they're "not paying their fair share" of gasoline taxes.. Of course, the state is also looking to double the current gasoline tax to make up for lost revenue.
I can see tax revenue being an issue - ~25% of cost of gasoline here in Alberta is "road tax" (Was 33% before UCP repealed the "carbon tax"). That's a lot of money to be losing. I consider gasoline tax, a fair tax as it is based on consumption - if I'm driving more, I'm wearing out road more so should be paying more. But someplace I believe gov't sidetracked that road tax into general tax.

How does gov't appropriately charge EV users a "consumption" tax? Adding $500/yr, based on average driver, to EV costs really hurts their breakeven point.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
EMT / Paramedic
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
2,240
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Location
Over there --->
Vehicle Year
2009
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
2.3 (4 Cylinder)
Engine Size
466.63 teaspoons.
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
So friggin big!
My credo
Give me money.
They could just stop spending 4 trillion dollars a year on pens, or hire compenant road crews that do the job for a reasonable cost and not just hire the first shady jackass who slips them a bribe to approve their bid of $57,000 dollars to fill in a pothole.

That might help lower fuel taxes and improve roads?
 


Top