Electric Fan Swap Questions

[ratdude747]

One other note: After doing some digging, as it turns out, there is a convenient place to get ignition power in the same harness as the A/C cycling switch (where I'm tagging the purple wire to get the A/C status)... the Gray/Yellow wire that goes to pin 7 on the cruise control module. Better yet, it's not hot in start (or accessory), so the fan won't load the battery during starting or when I'm stopped in a parking lot jamming to tunes.

 

[ratdude747]

Taking the rest of the week off work (need to burn my unused vacation time), so I'm digging into it.

Today I pulled the fan (was a PITA, had to resort to a 4lb mini sledge and a concrete chisel to knock it loose) and modded my fan and stock shroud to accept eachother (and riveted them together.

Went to test fit it, and it doesn't clear the water pump:

(Sorry for not clear pic; my phone ran out of juice and my digital camera is junk at night. )

Pics of my assembly I made:

(The wires were cut like that when I bought it. For $2.50, I'm not complaining!)

The issue is the bump on the back of the motor is smacking the threaded snout of the water pump. I clear everything else.

Do they make a water pump for the 4.0 that doesn't have the snout? I'm not too opposed to a water pump replacement considering that I hammered on it a bit to get the fan clutch off.

Or is there something I did wrong? I trimmed the Taurus shroud a bit shallower to clear already (1/8", on bottom end )... I'm not thrilled on trimming more as I don't want to risk vibration/flutter causing the fan to jump forward and kill my radiator.

Edit- Rechecked, no, the entire motor is hitting the water pump pulley. The last picture is misleading; the motor hangs out the back of the housing by about 6-10mm or so.

Going to see how much more I dare trim/shim the motor forward... ugh. Edit- about 9mm of existing clearance. Not much... about the amount I need, which is too close since I want to have some clearance.

Did ford make other 2 speed fans besides the Taurus fan? The one I have is a genuine ford part (or at least has Ford stamps and a part number in the plastic)... Perhaps the issue is the fan itself?

 

[franklin2]

I know it seems a little suspect when you look at it, but I have been using those through the radiator mounting kits that the aftermarket people use, and have had no problems with the radiator developing leaks or the fan coming loose. If you used one of these kits, and mounted the fan directly onto the radiator , would that give you the clearance you need?

Amazon.com: Derale 13001 Plastic Rod Mounting Kit, Silver: Automotive

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[ratdude747]

I know it seems a little suspect when you look at it, but I have been using those through the radiator mounting kits that the aftermarket people use, and have had no problems with the radiator developing leaks or the fan coming loose. If you used one of these kits, and mounted the fan directly onto the radiator , would that give you the clearance you need?

Amazon.com: Derale 13001 Plastic Rod Mounting Kit, Silver: Automotive

Buy Derale 13001 Plastic Rod Mounting Kit, Silver: Accessories - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Nope, as I've already trimmmed down the taurus fan shroud to add clearance.

Took some measurements, it looks like it's possibly a no-go due to the fan physically being thicker (110-115mm) than the minimum spacing between the water pump snout and the radiator (105ish mm)

One idea I've had is to jack up the fan in the shroud (no longer concentric) and see if that will give the clearance I need. But that's also no good, as I only have 35mm to move, but the radius of the motor casing is about 50mm.

(Sorry for all the metric units, my scales from work are all metric).

I'd give the ford assembly number of the fan, but it's covered up. Starts with F2DL, ends with 4AB. This indicates it was a 1992 introduction (F=1990's, 2 = 2nd year of decade). Something isn't right here.

 

[ratdude747]

It's the right fan. It's just that the water pump protrudes so far from the rest of the belt drive... heck, I looked, even the Mustang application for the SOHC (which used an electric fan) has effectively the same pump and pulley... Same pulley, at least.

Are aftermarket replacement fans any thinner? Volvo fan perhaps? Swapping just the motor is out; the fan blade is seized on the motor shaft pretty bad. I couldn't get it to come off.

 

[ericbphoto]

Yes, you can order thinner aftermarket fans. That's what I did.

 

[franklin2]

Yes, you can order thinner aftermarket fans. That's what I did.

Be careful, don't go by the aftermarket recommendations(the cheap fans in the parts stores). I bought two of their biggest 16 inch electric fans and installed both on my old idi 7.3 diesel. The side of the box said the 16 inch was good for a big block gas engine. Having two on there would not cool the diesel good enough when pulling a load.

Now comes along a 2.9 v6 ranger. Original fan is all cracked up, I have these fairly new 16 inch electric fans I bought doing nothing but gathering dust, so I installed one of those. It cools the little v6 just fine, but I would not want to put anything smaller on it. I like that it doesn't draw that much from the electrical system either. I have heard that Taurus fan works well, but draws a lot of power. I guess you don't get something from nothing.

 

[ratdude747]

Yes, you can order thinner aftermarket fans. That's what I did.

As in aftermarket Taurus fans? Or just aftermarket in general? If the former, what brand?

I do know (per the tech article writup) that there is a single speed chrysler minivan fan (2008-2009) that is a good fit... but being a hot running 4.0, I'm not sure that will have enough power to do what I want.

------

Trimmed the taurus fan shroud (removed from my modded ranger shroud) as low as I go (fan shaft nearly touching a straightedge), and nope, doesn't fit:

At that point the top of the fan rotation is right at the top of the radiator, so mounting higher isn't really an option

Edit: I do see an option here. I can raise the fan about 1/4" or so (bye-bye stock fan shroud), and replace the stock water pump bolts with button heads. And know that if I break a motor mount, things will crash... ugh, nah, bad idea.

 

[ratdude747]

On second thought, I'm leaning towards the Chrysler Minivan fan option and a single speed controller... It kinda sucks that it isn't working out, but I'm only out the $50 or so spent on the volvo switch, connector, and M14x1.5 tap. Sh*t happens.

 

[ratdude747]

Went to pull-a-part in search of the Caravan fan. No dice. But I did see something that could work, sitting in the front of a Dodge Journey:

(I also got the fan shroud off a 1996 4.0 ranger, same thing only with a warning sticker instead of raised letters)

The journey fan is only 90mm or so thick, and nearly the size of the stock fan opening. The fan and motor comes off the frame with 3 torx screws, making it so i can use off the shelf parts if I need a new motor down the road. All I need to do is figure out how to merge the two... Maybe there is an epoxy that works well with the fan plastic and fiberglass shroud?

Not sure on controlling it. Part of me says to use the BMW switch on order (and only use one of the outputs)... But I'd really like to get (or make) a non-relay PWM variable controller. Any suggestions for such, preferably one with an A/C input?

 

[ratdude747]

Went to pull-a-part in search of the Caravan fan. No dice. But I did see something that could work, sitting in the front of a Dodge Journey:



(I also got the fan shroud off a 1996 4.0 ranger, same thing only with a warning sticker instead of raised letters)

The journey fan is only 90mm or so thick, and nearly the size of the stock fan opening. The fan and motor comes off the frame with 3 torx screws, making it so i can use off the shelf parts if I need a new motor down the road. All I need to do is figure out how to merge the two... Maybe there is an epoxy that works well with the fan plastic and fiberglass shroud?

Not sure on controlling it. Part of me says to use the BMW switch on order (and only use one of the outputs)... But I'd really like to get (or make) a non-relay PWM variable controller. Any suggestions for such, preferably one with an A/C input?

Just got home (spent the evening at my parents' house, which is not far from Pull-A-Part!). Tested the fan... it does work (whew, the vehicle it came from had overheated and warped a bunch of plactic coolant fittings!), and moves a lot of air. Green is positive, black is negative. It came from a 2011 Dodge Journey with a 2.4L engine (and the only journey on the entire lot!). Per looking at the owner's manual online, it uses a 40A fuse, putting it on-par with the high speed of the taurus fan.

No picture, but it does fit if I mount it flush. I get maybe 10mm (3/8") of clearance in that case. Now I have something to work with.

Now I need to see about mating it to the fan shroud I pulled, and deciding on a control scheme. Again, I'd like to (eventually if not now) PWM it, but for now, probably will do something simpler. Are the adjustable fan relay controllers available online any good? Or am I better to use a thermal switch? Need to decide before I retap the radiator hose adapter (for use with the BMW switch if I use it).

If needbe, eventually, I could homebrew an PWM controller. I used to program microcontrollers back in college, and I happen to have an arduino nano based DIY prank security controller from back then sitting that I could cannibalize into such (would set the fan curve in code, and include a power-on relay and an AC-clutch input). But if somebody already makes something off-the-shelf that does what I want, I won't reinvent the wheel. Especially on something as critical as a cooling fan.

Edit- Derale makes some good PWM options, although I don't know how much I trust the stick-on sensors. I know their stuff is $$$ though. Will see what other options are out there.

Edit #2: Looks like Derale is the winner... 65A, includes a built in A/C override and auto-reset breaker. May have to add 1 relay for power on, but no big deal. $170 on Summit, so while more $$$ than I was looking to spend, is reasonable enough and seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Plus I don't need to break into the cooling system to add the sensor, and replacement sensors are only $20 or so a hit.

 

[ratdude747]

Pending approval from my wife to spend the $$$, I'll be going with a derale 16795 PWM controller. I don't like that the fan controller has no ignition input, so may add a power-on relay to the circuit; the manual says it need direct battery to ensure clean power, but I don't see a relay causing an issue... although if there is an issue with such, do tell.

Edit- from my research, supposedly, Derale advises against power-on relays; part of the design is to cool the water when parked, in an attempt to avoid excessive motor and alternator loads on startup. Fair point... probably not so good for the battery though.

 

[ratdude747]

Controller ordered. Did more trimming on the Jorney fan shroud; the new issue is that the old shroud won't go in with a fan installed due to the lower driver's side mounting tab interfering with the transmission cooler lines on the cold side of the radiator.

My options are to either (A) remove the transmission cooler lines and fittings and install a separate tranny cooler (something I probably ought to do as hot as C3 based units run), or (B) abandon this route and just spend more $$$ on a 3rd party fan and shroud. Leaning towards A due to wanting to keep a stock fan of some sort (serviceability down the road) and while I have read some people say to keep the radiator heat exchanger when running an external cooler (to warm up the fluid when cold), as hot as these units supposedly run, I doubt that's an issue? Edit- That's a terrible idea... DOH! Maybe I trim/nuke the lower driver's side tab? I'll still have the two stock screws holding the fan in place. I'll use my messed up shroud to test.

 

[ratdude747]

Seems that ear trimming is the way to go:

I'll probably trim some more to angle the cut line more towards the top, but with that much trimmed off, with the fan held inside the shroud, it did fit, barely.

Clearance when all is together:

That connector protector can be trimmed... but nah. I may elect to swap the water pump pulley screws for button heads through.

Other than bonding it all together (I'm thinking JB weld is the best way to go, since I have a lot of fillet joints?), all that will be left on the mechanical side is trimming part of the ranger shroud to allow for a fan replacement down the road:

I'll have to see once it's all bonded together, but as it is, I don't think the fan wheel will fit coming out. All I have to do is notch out one of the "lips" and that will allow the module to tilt up and out (the motor is held in with three torx screws and is easily removed).

 

[franklin2]

Edit- from my research, supposedly, Derale advises against power-on relays; part of the design is to cool the water when parked, in an attempt to avoid excessive motor and alternator loads on startup. Fair point... probably not so good for the battery though.

I have a simple thermal switch on mine directly to the battery. It's big enough to handle the load of the fan directly. So if the engine is hot, it comes whether the key is on or not. Mine cycles several times on a hot summer day after I shut the vehicle down, and I have never had any problems with the battery. A lot of the older vehicles were this way, that's why they had the warning embossed in the fan shroud "Fan can start at anytime"