Dog track

[JoshT]

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, they are expecting that you understand that dog tracking is crab-like behavior and it (truck) should -not- be dog tracking.

Yes, but from what you previously posted, it didn;t sound like you knew what dogtracking was.

Rather than dog tracking being the fact the fronts and rears have different track. I don't know if that's called a stagger, usually I hear that in relation to tires, but it's just a difference in track for design purposes.

If the amount of track difference left/right isn't the same then you get dog tracking.

Again, I'm not entirely sure what it is that you are trying to say. Sugestion, picture is worth 100 words even if it is a simple MS Paint drawing. If I skip over the part about stagger then yes. You'd really be better off just following the instructions in the third picture you posted.

Staggered is generally referring to your wheel/tire combo, squared -vs- staggered. Squared is when you are running same size wheel and tire in all four positions. Staggered is when you are running different wheel/tire size combo on front and rear. Usually with the larger being on the rear, though it does happen the other way on some FWD track cars.

the fact the rears are narrower track than the front, not that they rears are offset both to one side, that may be called also dog tracking but it's not what they are talking about.

Only by someone that doesn't know what they are talking about.

It really goes back to what do dog tracks look like in the snow? Are the fronts always to one side of the rears, or, is it that the fronts are always wider than the rears? I dunno and have no snow to test right now.
But you can Google it, and it looks to me like the rears are inside the fronts.

The red lines in the picture I posted in my last reply show what the tire tracks in snow would look like. The fronts are offset from the rears. It could be towards one side or the other but always the same on that vehicle. Again it is normal, and by design, for the front track to be wider than the rear track.

Now do you ever see a dog running with their whole body slanted sideways (crab-like)? I don't think so, it's something you'd right away go, wait, something is wrong with this dog. Or maybe you do see it and I just never noticed. To me it would imply the rear tracks of the dog don't line up with the front - maybe it's true.

You haven't? I'd say you weren't paying attention and never noticed, most of us have probably seen it a lot.

Have you ever seen a car (intentionally) shuffle sideways 90 degrees from the direction its facing. Yeah I haven't either, but someone (probably costal) used that as a description and it stuck as well.

That's exactly what dogtracking is referring to. The rears tracks don't line up with the front. I don't know how many time we have to say that.

Like, let's say you're driving along, they some guy says, hey, do you realize your truck is dog tracking? And you go, no, it's just the crowned road makes it -look- like that to you, but I checked it, and it's in spec.

You don't need to explain to the guy, just say thanks and keep on driving. The guy could be wrong. Generally it's going to be another driver telling you this. His perspective already puts him offset to one side of the vehicle, that combined with a rear tire that is noticably not in line with the front (by design) can give the illusion of dogtracking. This could be exaggerated even more on a steeply crowned road.

How did you check it? Was it just checked front relative to rear, or were all checked relative to each other and to chassis? It's possible to do a front wheel alignment, be in spec, and still be out enough to dogtrack.

The truck in question ('97) drives great, it doesn't pull to either side at any time, or wander, that I see, either under constant throttle, acceleration, or braking (kind of one of those things you test when you're looking at one, right?). So I don't have an issue, at least not known, and all tires seem to wear normally and evenly. But if I had alignment checked, which no doubt I will at some time, I'd ask them, what's the spec you are using and how does it compare to factory spec. Obviously they are doing to have different specs for different vehicles so I would expect it to match the factory spec.

How you would change the track either front/rear who knows, probably you would be adjusting the front, but it probably means moving major things relative to the frame.

It all depends on how much they check and how far they go with checking. They can correct the front tires to be in spec relative to the rear and match factory specifications. If the frame is tweaked (not square) or the rear axle is out of alignment (not square) with the frame then it's still going to dogtrack.

How you would correct depends on the problem causing the issue. I could take guesses, it would be like playing darts and I'm not very good at that.

So here's what the manual says. I think they just expect that you just know, dog tracking, it's bad (because... I dunno... it looks weird? drives weird?), you don't want it. Note they say on a crowned road it may appear (!) to dog track but my take is they're just warning you, this doesn't mean it's dog tracking (out-of-spec) it just appears that way, but here's how you check it.
oh and I have I re-correct myself my track should be 1.5" narrower on each side so 3" total. (Dana 35). The truck is straight along the side that's why you see the rears quite far inside the fenders, front, not so. They didn't make any attempt to hide it in the body shape, on this vehicle.

Correct, that manual is written for someone with some training and/or experience that would know dogtracking is bad.

Correct, they are saying this is what dogtracking is, but that the crowned road can give the false appearance of it. If you think it actually is dogtracking, here's how to check it. If it checks good and still appears to dogtrack on a crowned road, it's just an illusion so ignore it.

That illustration sucks. It shows the (exaggerated) effects of dogtracking with the tracks offset but the measurements they give are for the normal distance that the rear track should be inside the front track. If everything is in proper alignment the rear track should be 1.5" inboard of the front track on each side. If its dogtracking one side is going to be greater than the other. It is possible to dogtrack without either of the rear wheel tracks being outboard of the front wheel tracks. That image and the one I posted previously are somewhat extreme cases. In either of those the driver should be aware of it on their own since they'd be looking out the passenger side of the windshield while driving straight down the road.

I said they usually design to hide it. Usually, not always. That's referring to all vehicles, not just Rangers. 85_Ranger4x4 posted while I was taking an excessively long time to formulate this reply, but he's correct in his reasoning for why. I would like to add my personal assumption for why the difference is so much more than necessary. These were designed when trucks were used as trucks. The beds would be loaded down to the point that they squatted, or even bottomed out the rear suspension. With the narrower track width the rear tires would tuck up inside the wheel wells when carrying a load, rather than rubbing on the fenders causing damage. That's not necessary on modern truck design since most of them won't carry more than a laod of groceries.

It's the second column of the last pic where they talk about how to measure it. "when you notice the vehicle dogtracking" - um... how do you notice this? the body is crooked relative to your straight line, is how I take it.

That image, still exaggerated, is more in line with what you can expect to see from tracks in the snow. With mild dogtracking the rear wheel tracks are probably still going to be inside the front wheel tracks, but offset to one side or the other. Those are very good instructions on how to check, if you can;t get some sidewalk chalk and follow those instructions, you need to let someone else check it for you.

As for how to correct, that depends on what is causing it to be off, which I could only guess at from this side of the screen.

 

[James Morse]

Yeah exactly when I first saw it in the manual it seemed like "here's how you adjust your dogtracking" and really what it is saying is, here's how to check to see if you have it, cuz you don't want it.
Took me a while to get it. And they're saying, if you -think- you see dogtracking, it might be just the crowned road, but you can check.

Their first illustrations are indeed misleading, if you look at the actual "how to measure it" part you see the rears of course inside fronts.
the first pics, really couldn't happen, I think they're just trying to say, hey, it's different for different vehicles and they omitted the line/arrow pointing to the Ranger spec. or something.

as to the tire tracks, really if you drive it straight on some soft dirt you should see them overlap but rears inside
if you're turning they will never line up unless by coincidence because the radii of the different circles each wheel must be in, have to meet at a point, there was a long thread on this where we were talking about front/rear binding in 4x4.
I notice that effect when I back out of the shop to get the truck out of the way then I pull it to the side partly off the driveway. The house is near - and I have to have the back flank well clear of it when I cut the wheels hard because essentially the back doesn't move (much) and the front goes sideways. Like a semi, in principle.

Just to be clear, I don't have any issue with my truck. I haven't done their test, but I think if there was any real issue you would see it. Like when I come up the driveway, I'd say to myself why does the truck set crooked? And I don't.
Should it be checked just like other alignment things should be checked, sure, but if my vehicle drives straight, feels good, etc, and the tires are wearing evenly, then I kind of put it in the "it's working, don't mess with it" category and sometime have it checked but otherwise I don't worry about it

besides which their test is real simple, line up your points and drive straight. does the truck look straight according to your points? if yes, you're done. it's not dogtracking.

thanks

 

[sgtsandman]

what year Landcruiser? new ones seem not so
2021 Toyota Land Cruiser/Track width
64.9-65″ front, 64.4-64.7″ rear

that's odd I'd think it was the other way around, as the vehicle gets longer the angle of dogtracking would be less not more for a given discrepancy to spec
I'm missing something
by hunting you mean you try to drive the vehicle straight but it keeps trying to go at an angle? I mean, the vehicle as an entirety is going straight just it's doing it crooked.
so they are saying in the test, pick points you can line up and drive straight then look at the truck. is it straight or angled? if it's angled it's dogtracking and you can measure it and find out why (and fix it)

I'm wondering how much difference in stability 3" makes (the track difference on the '97) but if you say it does I believe you

yes you can do toe-in with strings too
here's the thing if there is a lot of difference front/rear in track then you'd have to account for that if you ran strings front/back otherwise you'd think you were seeing toe in when there was zero toe in
although you could meausre the fronts and backs of the front tires, maybe,
I'm saying if you use strings then, if you assume truck is in spec, you need a 1.5" block between the rear wheels, each side, and the string to know if there's toe in and how much

The Toyota Landcruiser available in the US is very different from what is available elsewhere in the world. The ones 4XOverland and Ronny Dahl work with are 78 (Troop Carrier) and 79 (Ute/truck) series Landcruisers. The Landcruiser sold in the US is an 80 Series. The 70 Series do not meet US safety standards where as the 80 Series does. The 76 is a wagon and is the shortest of the models and less prone to track hunting. The 78 is the "middle child" and is classified as a van. The 79 series is the longest, especially the crew cab model and track hunts the worst.

What happens is that the front wheels break ground and make the initial ruts. The rear wheels, being more narrow fit in between those ruts and depending on what the terrain is made up of, the rear wheels will slip and fall into one of the ruts made by the front wheels. If they just stayed in the one rut, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal but they don't. As the vehicle turns and the terrain tilts and angles, the rear wheels keep moving from one rut to the other creating a fishtailing effect.

Now, as far as the dog tracking talked about here as far as the rear wheels not lining up with the fronts. Some of that is a misalignment issue of some sort and some of it is dependent on how the vehicle is setup for thrust angle and what not. Some RWD vehicles are more exaggerated than other and are very noticeable if you are following them down the road. The vehicle appears to be going down the road slightly sideways. This is easier to notice on trucks since they sit higher and you can often see the front wheels as well as the rear ones. Also, some vehicles have adjustment for thrust angle and others do not. I haven't seen anything on a Ranger where you can adjust anything in relation to where the rear axle sits compared the vehicle frame or the front axle.

 

[James Morse]

Thanks for great explanation on hunting I know exactly what you mean now.

What is advantage of Landcruiser is it higher clearance?

I originally was interested in the dogtracking because I was looking at tires and what would fit if I went wider, and I noticed I really don't have much room to the edge of the fender (flares) in the front, until the tire would stick out past the flare, but in the back I have a whole lot of room and then I found that entry in the shop manual and it turns out, there should be 1.5" difference between them, assuming the body comes straight back which I believe it does.

Yes that's right, now that you mention it about the appearances. Driving on a crown you are essentially driving uphill so the fronts have to be turned a little bit to the left and now it all makes sense because Ford was saying, you might see this dogtracking effect... it's not necessarily anything wrong with the truck - if it doesn't dogtrack on level ground.
But in fact isn't it true that almost all the time for "normal" driving we are driving on crowned roads? In fact I'd say all the time, maintained roads are crowned. About the only place pretty flat is parking lots and even they aren't level if they're built right to drain.

I don't know where it says what to do about it, I only found the Diagnosis part so far.
If the axle width is fixed can you loosen where it's attached to the frame and slide it over a little to center it? Sounds too easy.
I have to think it's an issue you'd just about never see unless the frame was bent or stuff was taken apart in front and put back not lined up right.

Turning the front wheels a bit left on a crown to counteract gravity doesn't actually make the truck turn but it has to dogtrack a little to accomplish it.
It's pretty interesting. I'm going to look for it on other trucks.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Thanks for great explanation on hunting I know exactly what you mean now.

What is advantage of Landcruiser is it higher clearance?

I originally was interested in the dogtracking because I was looking at tires and what would fit if I went wider, and I noticed I really don't have much room to the edge of the fender (flares) in the front, until the tire would stick out past the flare, but in the back I have a whole lot of room and then I found that entry in the shop manual and it turns out, there should be 1.5" difference between them, assuming the body comes straight back which I believe it does.

Yes that's right, now that you mention it about the appearances. Driving on a crown you are essentially driving uphill so the fronts have to be turned a little bit to the left and now it all makes sense because Ford was saying, you might see this dogtracking effect... it's not necessarily anything wrong with the truck - if it doesn't dogtrack on level ground.
But in fact isn't it true that almost all the time for "normal" driving we are driving on crowned roads? In fact I'd say all the time, maintained roads are crowned. About the only place pretty flat is parking lots and even they aren't level if they're built right to drain.

I don't know where it says what to do about it, I only found the Diagnosis part so far.
If the axle width is fixed can you loosen where it's attached to the frame and slide it over a little to center it? Sounds too easy.
I have to think it's an issue you'd just about never see unless the frame was bent or stuff was taken apart in front and put back not lined up right.

Turning the front wheels a bit left on a crown to counteract gravity doesn't actually make the truck turn but it has to dogtrack a little to accomplish it.
It's pretty interesting. I'm going to look for it on other trucks.

They are right sized, simple and basically built to be beat on day after day by mining and oilfield workers.

 

[don4331]

Front is usually wider than the rear.

IMO it is a penny pinching move to increase handling. Making the front wider improves street handling over a narrower front axle while making the rear wider doesn't have as great of an effect.

But then things like the Explorer are the same front to rear because they need the extra axle width to help counter body roll because they run heavier, especially while towing.

Not just the Explorer, the Bronco II has wider rear axle, 1-7/16" (all on passenger's side.) The width of the front axle was therefore set by the width of the rear axle. As the Ranger uses the same front axle its width is same. As Ranger is longer, Ford used a narrower rear axle.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Not just the Explorer, the Bronco II has wider rear axle, 1-7/16" (all on passenger's side.) The width of the front axle was therefore set by the width of the rear axle. As the Ranger uses the same front axle its width is same. As Ranger is longer, Ford used a narrower rear axle.

How is the width of the front set by the rear?

BII was the same width front as a same era Ranger, same with an Explorer. For length the Ranger was longer than a BII but both shorter and longer than an Explorer depending on configuration. Sport Trac was the same front axle and wheelbase as a Supercab Ranger but ran the Explorer width rear axle.

 

[2011Supercab]

Springer spaniels run crooked as a MF, uncle of mine always had at least one at a time when I was growing up.. don't remember if they were English springers or what exactly but yeah.. super goofy.

When a dog is running and the back legs look like they are trying to pass the front legs and the front legs are doing 25 mph.

How fast are the back legs going?


I don't know, but they are hauling ass.

 

[JoshT]

I haven't seen anything on a Ranger where you can adjust anything in relation to where the rear axle sits compared the vehicle frame or the front axle.

I don't know where it says what to do about it, I only found the Diagnosis part so far.
If the axle width is fixed can you loosen where it's attached to the frame and slide it over a little to center it? Sounds too easy.
I have to think it's an issue you'd just about never see unless the frame was bent or stuff was taken apart in front and put back not lined up right.

No real adjustments. More an improperly installed axle or frame out of alignment.

I've seen it be having the leaf springs installed backwards on one side. I've seen it caused by leaf spring pearches not being positioned properly on a custom axle. I've seen it caused by a flip bracket being installed backwards on a lowered truck. Fix the problem, fix the dogtracking

On a truck I think a bigger cause is a tweaked frame. As a ladder frame it should look like this look like a rectangle. If it gets tweaked it could be slighlty diamond shaped. That would cause the rear axle to be out of alignment (the whole vehicles is) and cause dogtracking. Lots of things could caused the frame to get tweaked without being visibly bent, you;de kind of need to find someone with a frame machine to measure and fix this.

Yes that's right, now that you mention it about the appearances. Driving on a crown you are essentially driving uphill so the fronts have to be turned a little bit to the left and now it all makes sense because Ford was saying, you might see this dogtracking effect... it's not necessarily anything wrong with the truck - if it doesn't dogtrack on level ground.
But in fact isn't it true that almost all the time for "normal" driving we are driving on crowned roads? In fact I'd say all the time, maintained roads are crowned. About the only place pretty flat is parking lots and even they aren't level if they're built right to drain.

Turning the front wheels a bit left on a crown to counteract gravity doesn't actually make the truck turn but it has to dogtrack a little to accomplish it.

Exactly!

 

[pjtoledo]

time for some fun:

thrust angle

 

[snoranger]

time for some fun:

thrust angle

Poor thrust angle:

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

A couple other causes of dog tracking that come to mind...
If a truck is loaded all on one side the leafspring flattens out and is longer in relation to the other spring. This makes the axle not perpendicular to the frame.
Same thing can happen if you have a broken spring on one side.
@sgtsandman alluded to this with thrust angle mentioned in a previous post.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

A couple other causes of dog tracking that come to mind...
If a truck is loaded all on one side the leafspring flattens out and is longer in relation to the other spring. This makes the axle not perpendicular to the frame.
Same thing can happen if you have a broken spring on one side.
@sgtsandman alluded to this with thrust angle mentioned in a previous post.

This is why you should replace both packs if one gets damaged. Also why if it’s only me in the truck, I’ll load the passenger side slightly heavier to counter my weight in the cab but I usually shoot for as close to a balanced load as possible.

I’ll also adjust hitches and trailers so everything loads and rides close to level and balanced. It’s what you should do, but I’ve seen a lot of unbalanced loads or trailers and then they wonder why they have problems.

 

[JohnnyO]

I drove Sport Tracs for 15 years and in the Sport Trac world wheel spacers are popular. People found out that you want 1.5" spacers in front and 2" in the rear to make the tires even.