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Conversion to Flex Fuel

triumphrider-1

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Burning Ethanol (E100) is simply,

C2H5OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 3 H2O(l)

So the byproducts are just CO2 and Water.

Whereas, burning Gasoline produces hundreds of complex Carbon chain byproducts that are very nasty. And because the combustion of Gasoline is not very efficient, it produces soot, and Carbon Monoxide. In addition to large amounts of CO2.

So burning Ethanol is cleaner over-all, than burning Gasoline, but not perfect by far. Especially since no one uses Ethanol (E100) in their cars. Most use E85, which is only 85% Ethanol, and 15% Gasoline.

As a Combustion Engineer, this kind of stuff is what I deal with everyday at work...

-Chris
I assume your talking about complete/ideal combustion? I noticed your reaction equation has been simplified a little.

I've been told ethanol produces roughly 10% fewer emissions than gasoline.

Dang is this thread old!
 


fpepro

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I assume your talking about complete/ideal combustion? I noticed your reaction equation has been simplified a little.

I've been told ethanol produces roughly 10% fewer emissions than gasoline.

Dang is this thread old!

Yes, you are right, I left off the third part of the equation that deals with the heat production. So it was partly simplified. But under ideal conditions you can achieve nearly complete combustion, whereas you cannot achieve complete combustion of Gasoline under virtually any conditions. There will always be complex carbon chain byproducts unless filtered. Those are what are really bad for the environment, regardless of what-ever the Global Warming freaks want to say. Many of these complex carbon chains that are created, will combine with important components of the ozone layer to create very damaging compounds. Not to mention the damage they do to ground water supplies... Far too much is blamed on CO2 when its threat is highly overstated.

But you are right, E85 does produce roughly 10-15% less CO2 than Gasoline depending on grade and type. But those complex Carbon chains that are really nasty are reduced by 85%, because E85 has only 15% Gasoline in it. So in that respect, E85 pollutes far less than Gasoline.


-Chris
 

triumphrider-1

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Yeah, sometimes you need to wake up an old thread again, and beat with a stick a few more times...


-Chris
:icon_rofl:

Yes, you are right, I left off the third part of the equation that deals with the heat production. So it was partly simplified.
I was more thinking about the N2 and other atmosphere molecules and their reaction(s). I know the gasoline equation uses it, but I never really looked at the ethanol one.
 

fpepro

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I was more thinking about the N2 and other atmosphere molecules and their reaction(s). I know the gasoline equation uses it, but I never really looked at the ethanol one.
Oh, OK... Well atmospheric Nitrogen (N2) is normally just omitted from all combustion equations because it is a non-reacting agent in the combustion process.

Example:


As you can see, the quantity of Nitrogen before combustion is the same as after, which is why it's normally ignored.

Air for the most part is composed of,

78.084% Nitrogen (N2)
20.947% Oxygen (O2)
00.934% Argon (Ar)
00.033% Carbon Dioxide (CO2) - varies from 0.031 to 0.038 from place to place.

* at sea-level, 15°C and 1 ATM

But the only component in atmospheric air that really applies to combustion is Oxygen. The other components can come into play in subsequent reactions after the combustion takes place, but they have nothing to do with the actual combustion process itself. Combustion Efficiency really centers around Oxygen content in the air, and not much else. Elevation and temperature will affect Oxygen concentrations, so this is why racers always have to compensate for elevation and temperature. But the other components in air are really irrelevant to combustion.


-Chris
 
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fpepro

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[FONT=&quot]Since this topic went in the direction of the pollutants of Gasoline in comparison to Ethanol, I thought I would just show everyone what is actually in Gasoline. It is a common misconception that you can simply substitute Octane (C8H18) for Gasoline when calculating its combustion. But this is utterly ridiculous and completely incorrect since Octanes make up less than 1% of most mixtures of Gasoline. Below you will find a common recipe for Gasoline.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The actual composition of Gasoline changes from company to company, and from season to season. And has also changed allot as a result of numerous laws regarding pollution. Thus this is just one recipe that has been used, but most follow very closely to this recipe.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]One exception to this recipe is the Benzene content, which was limited to 1% in most developed nations recently due to its profound effect on the environment and life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Straight-chain Alkanes[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Carbon Number ….. Compound .......................... % by Mass
4 .............................. C4 (Butanes) ........................ 3.67
5 .............................. C5 (Pentanes) ....................... 7.08
6 .............................. C6 (Hexanes) ....................... 1.59
7 .............................. C7 (Heptanes) ...................... 0.96
8 .............................. C8 (Octanes) ........................ 0.76
Subtotal ................................................................ 14.07

Branched Alkanes
Carbon Number ….. Compound .......................... % by Mass
6 .............................. 2,3-Dimethyl butanes ............ 0.91
5 .............................. Isopentanes ............................ 6.90
6 .............................. 2-Methyl Pentanes ................. 2.87
6 .............................. 3-Methyl Pentanes ................. 2.04
7 .............................. 2,4-Dimethyl Pentanes .......... 0.82
7 .............................. 2,3-Dimethyl Pentanes .......... 1.91
8 .............................. 2,2,4-Trimethyl Pentanes ….. 2.08
8 .............................. 2,3,3-Trimethyl Pentanes ….. 0.99
8 .............................. 2,3,4-Trimethyl Pentanes ….. 1.24
7 .............................. 2-Methyl hexanes .................. 0.78
7 .............................. 3-Methyl hexanes ................. 0.88
9 .............................. 2,2,5-Trimethyl hexanes ....... 2.58
9 .............................. 2,3,5-Trimethyl hexanes ....... 0.48
8 .............................. 2-Methyl heptanes ................ 0.65
8 .............................. 3-Methyl heptanes ................ 0.92
10 ............................ 2,2,4-Trimethyl heptanes ….. 0.77
Subtotal ................................................................ 26.83

Branched Alkenes
Carbon Number ….. Compound .......................... % by Mass
6 .............................. 2-Methyl-2-butene ............... 0.95
Subtotal ................................................................. 0.95

Alkyl Benzenes
Carbon Number ….. Compound .......................... % by Mass
6 .............................. Benzene ................................ 4.90
7 .............................. Toluene ............................... 10.43
8 .............................. otho-xylene ........................... 1.37
8 .............................. meta-xylene .......................... 1.50
8 .............................. para-xylene ........................... 2.40
8 .............................. Ethylbenzene ........................ 0.99
9 .............................. 1-Methyl-4-Ethylbenzene ..... 0.50
9 .............................. 1-Methyl-3-Ethylbenzene ..... 1.35
9 .............................. 1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene ........ 1.68
Subtotal ................................................................. 25.12

Carbon Number ….. Compound .......................... % by Mass
_ .............................. Benzo(a)pyrene ..................... 0.00013
Subtotal ................................................................... 0.00013

Additives
Carbon Number ….. Compound .......................... % by Mass
_ .............................. MTBE ................................. 15.00
_ .............................. Other ................................... 18.03
Subtotal ................................................................. 33.03

Total ................................................................... 100.00

^ LUFT 1988
[/FONT]
 
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jdanbarnes

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But you guys are forgetting the most important part. . . the alternative fuel tax credit. I am totally joking guys, come on, put the sticks, torches and pitch forks down.
 

AllanD

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Well, a couple of reasons;
E85 fuel is about $0.76/gal cheaper than mid-grade unleaded here in Colorado Springs. Maybe the difference will take the sting out of filling uo more.

Secon, I'm an Engineer and this is geky/cool thing to me; tinkering around with my truck!

Thanks for asking.
The lower cost doesn't mnake up for the lower mileage.

And the lower cost is a phantasm that is entirely created by major government subsidies on the production of ethanol that could disappear at any time.

AD
 

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I say go for it, if your going to do it for all the good reasons. Ethanol is a little less efficent, but its cheaper, has a higher octane, and burns cleaner. Your engine could last alot longer with E85 cause it doesn't have the carbon build up that straight petro fuel does. Don't get that snake oil scam your looking at. Instead get a tuner, and just have someone create a tune for E85. All newer cars have upgraded fuel systems to deal with ethanol in the fuel. They have been doing it since EFI came into the market in 85ish. It has an octane of 105, so a higher comression motor at sea level would gain the most from it. Engine temps should go down as it has less energy (BTU) and burns cooler than gasoline. Need to have the proper A/F though. Others saying running it without a tune are setting you up to run lean and have high temps and burn a piston or valve. E85 is best in a supercharged or turbocharged application though, as Its less prone to preignition, and has higher octane. I am gonna run it in both my rangers.
 

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I say go for it, if your going to do it for all the good reasons. Ethanol is a little less efficent, but its cheaper, has a higher octane, and burns cleaner. Your engine could last alot longer with E85 cause it doesn't have the carbon build up that straight petro fuel does. Don't get that snake oil scam your looking at. Instead get a tuner, and just have someone create a tune for E85. All newer cars have upgraded fuel systems to deal with ethanol in the fuel. They have been doing it since EFI came into the market in 85ish. It has an octane of 105, so a higher comression motor at sea level would gain the most from it. Engine temps should go down as it has less energy (BTU) and burns cooler than gasoline. Need to have the proper A/F though. Others saying running it without a tune are setting you up to run lean and have high temps and burn a piston or valve. E85 is best in a supercharged or turbocharged application though, as Its less prone to preignition, and has higher octane. I am gonna run it in both my rangers.
Ethanol sucks huge salty monkey balls any way you cut it.

I'd rather eat the corn than run my truck on it.
 

redbird

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there is just as much information as there is misinformation about E85. i do know that there are more corn fields in this country than oil fields, E85 can be produced from plants that wouldnt threaten the food supply (we already buy grain from china when it should be grown right here) it doesnt add up. what does add up is that our politicians are in bed with the oil companies that dont mind bleeding everyone at the pump.
 

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there is just as much information as there is misinformation about E85. i do know that there are more corn fields in this country than oil fields, E85 can be produced from plants that wouldnt threaten the food supply (we already buy grain from china when it should be grown right here) it doesnt add up. what does add up is that our politicians are in bed with the oil companies that dont mind bleeding everyone at the pump.
While ethanol CAN be made from other non-food materials (theory)
it simply isn't (Reality) in industrial practice.

The thing to look at with E85 is not "Miles per gallon", but "Miles per dollar"

Gasoline generally has about ~19BTU of heat energy per pound of fuel
or to be more exact 114,000BTU/gal, Gasoline mixed with 10% Ethanol
OTOH drops that to 111,836BTU/gal, E85, 85% Ethanol is only 81,800BTU/gal

In terms of percentage E10 (common current pump gasoline) is 98% as energetic as pump gas without alcohol at all (2% isn't much)

But E85 is only 71.94% as energetic as pump regular.

So it should be 30% cheaper, and if you do the math on $3.85/gal pump gas, if E85 isn't <$2.75/gal you are getting fukt at the pump, not even considering that you must stop more frequently for fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

Understand the difference between "Economy" and "False Economy"

E85 is a SCAM being perpetrated by cynical people who depend on everyone else being bad at simple math.

As for Politicians "Being in bed with" the petroleum industry?

Would you be suprised to learn that The largest corporate contributor to Barack Obama's 2008 presidential
campaign was British Petroleum?

How about Obama whining about corporate subsidities to oil companies (tax deductions that ALL corporations get)
when he GAVE around 280billion dollars to Brazil to help them start exploiting their offshore oil without any sort of
promise that we'd get any of it... isn't that sorta crooked?


And last thing "Corporate taxes" are a political myth.
There really is no such thing, because any corporation that is taxed is simply going to pass on
those taxes to their customers.(and probably tack on another 35% to cover their cost of
paperwork to make sure they pay the taxes correctly)

so the political phrase "corporate taxes" is a buzz phrase to say "Tax the people more and have
them CHEER", Cheer about "Sticking it to the evil corporation" (that same corporation that heats their
home, grows their food and makes their clothes, and generally makes their lives MUCH easier
than it would be without those "evil" corporations.

Who here is that Stupid?

How stupid are people in general? Ask me about that the third week of November.

AD
 
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spirits

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I am in the process of converting the 98 Ranger I just bought. Three years ago I put a fuel Flex converter on my geo tracker. I didn't change anything and was intending to replace things as they failed. I have put about 35000 miles on it with E85 and it still runs great. I found that under high load conditions like interstate speed i get better fuel economy than I did with gas. I would like to change the gear ration but it's 4WD so that would be tough. My ranger is 2WD and standard so I have high hopes. The factory flex vehicles don't seem designed to run E85 well.
Spirts
 

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I will say that ethanol likes to eat up any seal it touches.
 

spirits

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The BTUs are less but the octane is higher. My engine runs cooler. less thermal loss pollution.
 

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