CompCams camshaft# 49-410-8

[MAKG]

Please do tell the class just how Torque, Horsepower, acceleration are all related. Especially the part how "engine out put is not important". Silly me, if I had only known the engine output was not important, I would have removed my engine a long time ago. After all if it's not important it must just be dead weight, and I could really use the extra room for more wheel'n gear.

Let's misread a statement and then go nuts on it, shall we?

Torque at the axles CAN BE MADE ANY VALUE WHATSOEVER, regardless of what the engine is putting out. That's what gears do. That's why ignoring your transmission and rear end is foolish. It's the axles (and tires) that accelerate your vehicle.

If engine output is not important, why is eveyone trying to stuff a v8 where their v6 was? Why is everyone dicking with chip's, airbox's, and ignitions?

I don't know everyone's motivations, but at least some of it is "penis comparison." Peak horsepower is an irrelevant statistic if the driver never even gets to the torque peak (and that's unfortunately rather common).

Why is the majority of the crap sold in Summit, Jeg's, PAW, etc... all geard toward increasing engine output?

Because that's what people pay money for. If there are a lot of fools around, there will be people trying to take advantage of them. For instance, Slick 50 sells a lot of crap, even after the FTC nailed them.

Besides a shift kit will not magically increase the capacity of what it can handle or how fast it will accelerate from a dead stop. It will magically improve ET's on the drag strip and how long it can handle it's max capacity, because of how it shifts and locks up. It can help with many other things, but unless you mess with the actual gearing in the tranny it dont do, do do when it comes to actual pulling power.

No, messing with transmission shift points doesn't affect starting from a dead stop, simply because you can't downshift out of 1st gear. Differential gearing and tire sizes do. Do you REALLY mean to say you're drag racing a truck while towing? Or are you just mixing your issues? A tow vehicle is not a race vehicle. You said this was a daily driver that you wanted to tow your boat.

I'm not even going to address the octane and detonation, other than to say. Yeah it does help w/that. Duh, no SH*T, I never said it did'nt. I will say, running 91 in a regular every day car will NOT ruin the engine. Yes, it will be an incredible waste of money, but it will NOT harm anything.

OK, where did I say it would destroy your engine? I said it might make it run worse. That's really not close.

What if Someone ran some AV gas? Would that have any measureale difference? What if someone ran some Gasahol?

Older AVGas is illegal because it is (heavily) leaded. Newer ("low lead") AVGas isn't entirely lead free either. Gasohol is called "winter blend" these days, because of some questionable statistics about emissions (it's an oxygenate, but it has less energy content).

What if somone mixed some nitromethane up and put it on the sniffer?

Nitromethane blends have a wildly different mixture than gasoline, so that's going to be a bit of an emissions problem. Pure nitromethane probably won't light off at all in a gasoline engine... You would do better to ask about nitrous oxide.

 

[Exploder]

I should leave this alone, but I just can't help myself.

I think we may have actually started to discuss a couple of things.

I'll start with I GET gearing. Part of my examples were meant to make a point.

Keep in mind if gearing is everything you would see a Briggs and Stratton under the hood of a Semi. Those rig's have a lot of gears and a lot of HP/TQ under the hood.

I GET peak usable HP/TQ.

You seem to have missed the part where I said; I have already gone through my tranny.

You did notice the part where I'm towing my boat. I happen to tow it on the freeway. I'm not going to change my gears any lower than they are right now. For the most part I'm happy with how my explorer pulls my boat. Where I live and boat there are a lot of 4-6% grades (steep mountain hills for those that don't know what a grade is). If you have ever been to SL and traveled I-80 inbetween SL and Park City you have about 25-30 miles of steep grades. A little extra TQ on that little hill would be nice.

I have never once said anything about wanting to get out my chemestry set to increase mileage.

 

[MAKG]

Yes, I've been through Park City. Snowmass as well, which is a bit more difficult (in addition to a similar grade, it's at 11,000 feet), and the Sierra Nevada. I did Snowmass in a 2.9L at 70 MPH in 3rd gear (on a 5speed).

I guess I don't understand why you care if you blast up that grade at 4000 or 4500 RPM. This will nearly double the avaliable torque at the axles over the usual 2000-2500 RPM cruise. Doubling engine output, while not technically impossible, is effectively impossible on a finite budget.

If you've already "gone through" the transmission (I'm not sure what you mean by that), there is still differential gearing and tire sizes. The pushrod 4.0L doesn't like speeds above about 5000 RPM, but mine will get me up to nearly highway speed in 2nd, and very comfortably above it in 3rd. This is with 3.54 gears and 31 inch tires, not the highest available (but I will eventually lower the ratio).

As you know, power largely determines top speed. Believe it or not, I have seen haulers using very small two stroke engines before. Not in the US; the top speed is too slow for the distances and highways involved. Heck, I've seen a yard of bricks on a bicycle. Not much there besides gearing.

 

[Exploder]

Wow, isn’t arguing in the Special Olympics fun?

Let’s see, why does it not surprise me that you drive a steeper hill with a smaller motor uphill faster? Hmm, I’ll bet if I said I could spit 15’ you would be able to spit 20’.

Hmm, 70 up hill in 3rd. You did that because you did not have the power to do it in a higher gear. Guess what? I’ve gone 75 in 1st gear in my Camaro too. I don’t think I’d make it from SL to CA doing that though.


Let’s see. We have a motor, a transmission, a gear ratio in the differential and the gear ratio of tire size. Which one of these is not important? Oh, oh! I know, it’s the output of the motor. Silly me. For all these years I thought they ALL had to work together.

Wait could it possibly be that they can all work together, or against each other?
(Just in case I’m typing above you. That was sarcasm).


In the quest for larger penis’s I think we often get hung up on comparing tire size (Size does matter after all). Then when we realize we can’t swing the tool like we used’to could because the tool got too big for our britches, we start getting gear envy (It always looks easy in the movies). While gear envy can help move the tool around a little, it can’t always go the distance.

As much as girls seem to like the big tires, I know they like the ride to last all the way home too. I’ve been told it’s very disappointing for them to rev things up and not go very far because of a bent rod from going to fast. I’ve been told too, that it’s a real mood killer to be spinning the motor at 5k and throw a rod. I know I get a little grumpy when I have a bent rod, flat out pissed when I float a valve and smack a piston.

I’m going to shift vehicles here and look at my vacation rig. It’s an 86 crew cab GMC 1 ton dually. In vacation mode it sports a 12’ camper and a 21’ boat. It has a 3.53 rear-end. It also has a turbo 400 w/shift kit and a warmed up 454 complete w/ cam, headers dual 4” exhaust and some other goodies (yes it’s pump gas friendly). Fully loaded with 30gal of water, 40gal gas in truck, 40gal gas in the boat and all the camping goodies for a week of pleasure, I can pull 70mph in high gear up that same stretch. I’m 100% convinced that the reason I can pull that same stretch has to do with the HP/ TQ curve of the motor and not because I dropped the gearing. In fact I can pull the grade easier than my Buddie that has a 460 and 4.11 in his truck. Hmmm? Too bad output does not matter.

There was a reason I listed the mileage of some of my other vehicles. I wanted to point out they are all high miles and I put the miles there. For example; I’m the 2nd owner of the 69 Pickup. My Dad was the original owner. The motor has been done exactly 1x. The trans. has been done exactly 1x. 98% of the miles on it have been fully loaded with a camper and boat. It has been round trip from SL to NY.

Part of the reason it has lasted so well for so long, is that I don’t run it redlined just to get up a hill.
I did however, play w/ the motor, put a med stall converter and a few other goodies in to go along with some taller gears that help out with the mileage (see, I can play with gearing too).

The part that seems to have me baffled is that I keep pointing out that I’m rebuilding a motor. I have the motor apart. While I’m interested in things to do with the motor, you want to talk gears.

You are quick to point out I’m doing this the expensive way, but if I did it your way I would have the cost of the rebuild plus the cost of gears (gears that are not needed for what I’m doing).

If I do it my way, I have the cost of rebuilding the motor only. Which one is more expensive?
Since you keep asking, I know you are dying to know what I did to the tranny when I had it out. Well, all I’m going to share is; Heavy duty clutches and a few other goodies that helped my prior exploder survive pulling my boat 2-3x per week between April and Sept. (I like to play) for several years.

I want to talk motor (specifically cam), not gears and tires. Oh, yes my tires are larger than stock. Due to the suspense factor and the fact that I came here to talk motor, the tires are now mystery tires (I always wanted to be a man of mystery).
No tires no tranny for you! (think soup Nazi from Seinfeld)

If I was building a crawler from scratch then I’d be all up for talking gears, lockers, tires, suspension in addition to motor. Alas, I’m not. I’m just rebuilding my tired motor and thought I could reach out and feel some love from someone that has used a cam I was considering in the same manner I was considering.

So let’s see if we can focus. I’m rebuilding a motor. That motor has 200k miles on it. For the last 20k it has been ticking from worn rockers, and recently took up to smoking (nasty habit by the way). It gave me some cock’n’bull story about worn out valve stem seals and stress. I also had that sweet smell of antifreeze coming out the exhaust. The joy’s of a cracked head and burnt valve (kind of like Sat mornings in College).

So tomorrow morn I get to pick my head’s from the machine shop and they will be ready to bolt onto a block that is all lathered up and awaiting a cam that will make her purr, like a bride on her wedding night.

So thank you for educating me about the dangers of putting non gov’t approved substances in my tank. I would have hated to have had to hire Woodyedmiston as my Atty. (PS thanks Woody, I forgot to say that earlier. I do agree, MAKG is a bit of an Asshat, but don’t tell him. I’d hate to hurt his/hers feelings)

Thank you for educating me on the proper usage of gear ratio’s and I’ll remember to pull over to the side when the bicyclist pulling a load of bricks wants to pass on a steep hill because my penile extension of a motor is all wrong and am just too slow for him.

Oh, I almost forgot. This one time at Band camp….
I moved my boat without using any vehicle. I think it was because of the gear ratio of my shoes.

I’ll be a good boy now and sit down and let you teach the class now.

 

[MAKG]

Exploder, you aren't going to bend a rod running your engine within its design limits. If you wanted to, you could drive the 1000 miles from Salt Lake to Los Angeles entirely with the OD off (or even one more gear down) and your engine wouldn't care. And in fact I'd recommend doing just that when towing something very heavy like a boat.

And a rebuild and a build are very different things. Sure you can put a cam in there. It will make a small but noticeable difference, compared to gearing and tire size. If you want more than that, you're doing A LOT more than just replacing a cam. Like getting a hardened and precisely balanced crankshaft, having the heads worked over with a flow bench and pitot tube, and so on. Real power is real expensive. And the strange part of it is, much (though not all) of making power is winding the engine faster. Which you don't seem to want to do...

You seem bent on doing this. It's your truck. You've been told the issues. That you choose not to listen is your problem.

 

[Exploder]

You don't seem to under stand, that I do under stand what happens inside of a motor and the relationship of gearing and tires.

I do know that it costs $ to make HP. Hell, I spent more on the machine work on the heads alone for my Olds than I will spend on this entire project. I spend a lot of time and money setting things up so I would have the HP/Tq matching everything else in the boat. It is now a 500hp motor with very few stock parts that I run all day long and get most 200lb slalom skiers up in less that 10'

You don't seem to understand that it is possible to increase your HP/ TQ across the entire range if you build it correctly. A Dragster will have a different usable rpm range than say a stock car. Both of those applications will utilize different gearing to achieve different things. There is different reliability factors involved too.

I built my big truck motor with different goals and usable rpm range and HP/TQ goals than I did my Camaro.

You hit the nail on the head with exactly what I am looking for when you said I would make a "small but noticeable difference" BINGO! this is EXACTLY what I want. Ding ding ding! winner winner chicken dinner!

I have been saying this from the very beginning!

I have known for years you don't tow in OD (since I was about 13 or so). Yes, I have been ignoring your comments on gearing down. Mostly because I want to talk motor, and you keep going on about gearing. I even know it is ok to manually downshift on steep hills. I understand you need to bump up the rev's when pulling hard, so you can get into power curve and it will be easier on the equipment. This is one of the reasons why I have been able to tow to Powell, Flaming Gorge etc... for years and not kill the tranny.

I know very well that as long as you stay w/in the engineered limits you don't bust rod's, cranks. I also know that if you keep the rev's 500 rpm below the max. you can run them for 100's of thousands of miles.

I also know that there is a difference in mileage and long trip enjoyment between 70mph at 3000prm and 70mph at 4000rpm.

Any ways, you win the prize for astuteness in my goals and I'll be on my hell bent way's.

 

[Tee Rev]

I have to put my $.02 in here as I find it very frustrating to see someone who thinks they know all, make a fool of themselves!!


It takes surprisingly little to make the 4.0L OHV a very powerful little engine with gains across the entire rpm band, not just in the top end!

For example, almost 10 years ago now, I took a 91 short block with 100,000 miles on it, installed lightly ported 95tm heads, a Comp 422 cam & a set of borla headers. With the stock computer (no tuning) 87 octane fuel (I live at 3500'), on a Mustang dyno the truck put down 175hp at 4500 rpm & a peak of 225 lb/ft of torque at 3500 rpm at the wheels!
That's not the impressive part though! torque was over 200 lb/ft from 1700 rpm to 4500 rpm.

Ya, it was a small, but noticeable difference!

 

[Monzilla]

Are you serious about the figures?

Im currently racing a ranger with a 96 Explorer 4.0L. This winter Im building a 94 short block with the 96 top end. The heads are being heavily ported and we are running a Comp Cam custom grind. Its a 230/236 duration at .050" and .544/.571" lift with a lobe separation of 112.

Now if I chip this engine and can get it to run above 6000, I should have an output between 200 and 250hp. Thats assuming the bottom end will stay together.

The 96 heads will raise compression on the 94 bottom end at least one full point without and decking or milling. So with decking I could get 10.5:1? Maybe 11:1?

Got any other ideas?

 

[F150hybred]

Well, here's my two cents on the ORIGINAL topic. If you ask me, the manufacturers have chosen to NOT include this cam shaft as a "compliant" part for various reasons. First and foremost, this camshaft possibly or most likely puts the emissions of this engine close to or beyond what it should be at. Second, they cannot guarantee that the person doing the work has done so without screwing with something else. Plain and simply, if it doesn't come with an exemption number, it should not be used for "on road" use. With that being said, what you do is beyond our control. Just know that if you run this part, without an exemption number you could be breaking the law.

 

[Tee Rev]

Are you serious about the figures?

Im currently racing a ranger with a 96 Explorer 4.0L. This winter Im building a 94 short block with the 96 top end. The heads are being heavily ported and we are running a Comp Cam custom grind. Its a 230/236 duration at .050" and .544/.571" lift with a lobe separation of 112.

Now if I chip this engine and can get it to run above 6000, I should have an output between 200 and 250hp. Thats assuming the bottom end will stay together.

The 96 heads will raise compression on the 94 bottom end at least one full point without and decking or milling. So with decking I could get 10.5:1? Maybe 11:1?

Got any other ideas?

Those figures were for the engine I built 10 years ago.
I ran consistent 14.6's in my 91 ranger with that engine.

I installed an SDS stand alone ECU and with a little tuning, the truck ran consistent 14.3's

Just for comparison, I tuned it on a Dynojet, and the rwhp was just shy of 200hp and rwtq was 240lb/ft. I don't rely on the dyno #'s, I'd rather see what it runs at the track.

I finally got my present build to the track Sept 14th. But unfortunately my 15 year old Auburn finally gave up!! & I also ended up bending a shift fork causing my tranny to lock into 4th.

But I did manage a one wheel peel 14.7 with a pathetic 2.2 sec 60'


Instead of shaving the heads or decking the block, why not install some SOHC flat tops?

 

[Tee Rev]

Well, here's my two cents on the ORIGINAL topic. If you ask me, the manufacturers have chosen to NOT include this cam shaft as a "compliant" part for various reasons. First and foremost, this camshaft possibly or most likely puts the emissions of this engine close to or beyond what it should be at. Second, they cannot guarantee that the person doing the work has done so without screwing with something else. Plain and simply, if it doesn't come with an exemption number, it should not be used for "on road" use. With that being said, what you do is beyond our control. Just know that if you run this part, without an exemption number you could be breaking the law.

Actually it's more a matter of cost.

You'll find quite a few more aggressive cams for other engines that are "approved" but they are for engines that are used in a great # of vehicles. Such as the 5.0L and the LS engines.
It's not cost effective to try and get approval on the 4.0L cams as the market is tiny in comparison!

There have been several posts on other boards concerning these cams & emissions test, with many passing without issue.

Do a search and see for yourself.

 

[Monzilla]

The 94 pistons have a smaller dish than the 96. With that large of a cam I want to make sure I have plenty of vavle clearence. Specailly if I can find some larger vavles with the same stem size and length to install in the 96 heads.

I plan on spinning this engine above 6000rpm on a regular basis. If vavle springs lose tension and the vavles float, I want plenty o' room for error.

Another thought. Anyone ever used a 66mm throttle body? I think they are made by BBK. Worth it? Not?

 

[rickcdewitt]

MAKG can be a little too free with his opinion some times,he's misunderstood what i was saying before also.probably a mechanic by trade or ex mechanic they can be like that.

 

[Tee Rev]

The 94 pistons have a smaller dish than the 96. With that large of a cam I want to make sure I have plenty of vavle clearence. Specailly if I can find some larger vavles with the same stem size and length to install in the 96 heads.

I plan on spinning this engine above 6000rpm on a regular basis. If vavle springs lose tension and the vavles float, I want plenty o' room for error.

Another thought. Anyone ever used a 66mm throttle body? I think they are made by BBK. Worth it? Not?

Thanks to the orientation of the valves you'll have tons of clearance even with the longer duration cam. I'm running Comp 988 springs, and have seen 6500 rpm during my burnout as well as my launch. I've got my rev limiter set for 6250 rpm but it'll bounce between 6000 and 6500.
I can honestly say that I have close to 1000 passes down the 1/4 mile with these springs.

As for the 66mm TTB, go for it, it won't hurt. I was originally running a stock TTB bored to 63mm, but eventually coughed up the $$$ for the BBK unit.
It didn't make a bit of difference over the 63mm but it looks nicer!

I too can be very opinionated at times, and I'll admit that I definitely don't know everything. But when it's something I have first hand experience with, I'll express my view.

I am also a tradesman, Journeyman Machinist/Machine shop owner that is.

Trev

 

[Monzilla]

Those Comp cam 988 springs sound like an excellent idea. Did you have to do any machine work to the spring seats to make them fit? New retainers or keepers?

I was also going to ask about the shaft style rockers. How do those hold up?