• Welcome Visitor! Please take a few seconds and Register for our forum. Even if you don't want to post, you can still 'Like' and react to posts.

Caster/Camber question


rumblecloud

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2020
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
1,101
Points
113
Location
48022
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ranger Splash
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
1-1/2 inch front leveling
Total Drop
Stock
Tire Size
31/10.50/15
My credo
What's the worst that could happen?
Is there a corresponding relationship between the amount of lift (or lowering) and the degree to which caster and camber are changed?

For instance, with a given tire size a 2-inch lift will result in a change XX-degree of camber and XX-degree of caster? Or is there more to it than that?
 


ericbphoto

Overlander in development
TRS Event Staff
TRS Forum Moderator
Supporting Member
U.S. Military - Veteran
TRS 20th Anniversary
VAGABOND
TRS Event Participant
GMRS Radio License
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
15,200
Reaction score
16,339
Points
113
Age
59
Location
Wellford, SC
Vehicle Year
1993
Make / Model
Ford Ranger
Engine Type
3.0 V6
Engine Size
3.0L
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
6"
Tire Size
35"
My credo
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.
Tire size doesn't matter. There should be a specific relationship between axle beam angle and camber. I've never seen a chart describing it. As the beam moves up or down, it pivots in 2 directions. One pivot is the axle beam pivot point. The other is from the radius arm mounting point on the frame. So it affects both camber and caster.

I'm at work. It's way more math than I want to tackle right now. Most of us just get new adjustment bushings with max adjustment range and make it work. I don't recommend much more than an inch or inch and a half of coil spacer lift. It's much better to use a lift kit that lowers those pivot points and lengthens the radius arms.
 
Last edited:

RonD

Official TRS AI
TRS Technical Advisor
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
25,290
Reaction score
8,290
Points
113
Location
canada
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ford
Transmission
Manual
Depends on the lift method

Body lift doesn't change the chassis at all, so no changes in alignment
And you can get greater ground clearance by larger diameter tires that now fit, i.e. going from 29" tire to 33" tire gives you 2" more of ground clearance


If you change the angle of the front wheels hub then camber changes for sure, caster maybe
Suspension lifts can move the lower A arm down more(upper as well), which causes the hub/wheel to tilt in at the bottom, positive camber, when weight of vehicle is on the tires

i.e. if you jack up the front BY THE FRAME, the A arms drop down and that's the positive camber you would see if new suspension pushed the A arms down that far when weight was back on the front tires

There might be a general rule for angles if you look, but I don't know any off hand

Solid axle at the rear shouldn't change at all with either lift since its a solid axle
 
Last edited:

rumblecloud

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2020
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
1,101
Points
113
Location
48022
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ranger Splash
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
1-1/2 inch front leveling
Total Drop
Stock
Tire Size
31/10.50/15
My credo
What's the worst that could happen?
Tire size doesn't matter. There should be a specific relationship between axle beam angle and camber. I've never seen a chart describing it. As the beam moves up or down, it pivots in 2 directions. One pivot is the axle beam pivot point. The other is from the radius arm mounting point on the frame. So it affects both camber and caster.

I'm at work. It's way more math than I want to tackle right now. Most of us just get new adjustment bushings with max adjustment range and make it work. I don't recommend much more than an inch or inch and a half of coil spacer lift. It's much better to use a lift kit that lowers those pivot points and lengthens the radius arms.
I really don't want you to math it out for me. I was just positing hoping that someone had already done all that. Like; "Oh yeah...there's a chart in the..."
I just did my uppers and lowers so that's why I'm asking-- just getting familiar with it all. My 1-1/2 inch washer lift is behind it all. I've gone thru the Tech Section and read 4x4Junkie's article. Bought the Moog adjustable bushing he likes and I am now just like "most of us."

......If you change the angle of the front wheels hub then camber changes for sure, caster maybe
Suspension lifts can move the lower A arm down more(upper as well), which causes the hub/wheel to tilt in at the bottom, positive camber, when weight of vehicle is on the tires....
That's exactly what prompted this post. Even though it was only a small lift, the camber is visibly changed.

Thanks for humouring me (see what I did there) 😬
 

RonD

Official TRS AI
TRS Technical Advisor
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
25,290
Reaction score
8,290
Points
113
Location
canada
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ford
Transmission
Manual
LOL

And remember you don't want stronger springs, that hold vehicle up higher, longer is OK, but same weight rating
Stronger(higher weight rating) lifts up the vehicle but you get a "shitty" stiff ride, oversprung
Its not a trade off, just bad design

Pickups are notorious for being oversprung in the rear to get their 1/2 ton or higher rating, higher weight rated springs are just the cheapest way to do it, so thats what you usually get from builder/manufacturer

You can use springs rated for empty bed weight with overloads added , costs more but way better ride

Also better for traction and control
When overspung wheel(s) hit a bump or dip the rebound pushes vehicles weight up and that LIFTS the lighter axles/wheels up so they have less traction or are off the ground completely, lol
Totally sucks when steering or trying to go uphill or downhill on a bumpy road, brakes only work when wheels are firmly on the ground :)
 
Last edited:

ericbphoto

Overlander in development
TRS Event Staff
TRS Forum Moderator
Supporting Member
U.S. Military - Veteran
TRS 20th Anniversary
VAGABOND
TRS Event Participant
GMRS Radio License
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
15,200
Reaction score
16,339
Points
113
Age
59
Location
Wellford, SC
Vehicle Year
1993
Make / Model
Ford Ranger
Engine Type
3.0 V6
Engine Size
3.0L
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
6"
Tire Size
35"
My credo
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.
"I really don't want you to math it out for me."

Sorry. I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty for asking. Just explaining why my answer didn't go into further detail.

It would actually be an interesting thing to work out some day.
 

rumblecloud

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2020
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
1,101
Points
113
Location
48022
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ranger Splash
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
1-1/2 inch front leveling
Total Drop
Stock
Tire Size
31/10.50/15
My credo
What's the worst that could happen?
"I really don't want you to math it out for me."

Sorry. I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty for asking. Just explaining why my answer didn't go into further detail.

It would actually be an interesting thing to work out some day.
That was what I was wondering. It seems like it would be feasible - as you say, a ton of math involved -- not my strong suit.
thanks again have a good night.
 

RonD

Official TRS AI
TRS Technical Advisor
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
25,290
Reaction score
8,290
Points
113
Location
canada
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ford
Transmission
Manual
With vehicle weight on the tires and wheels pointed straight
Measure the camber at wheels hub, or put a straight edge up and down on the rim only and measure its degree offset, should be close to 0

Then jack up THE FRAME 2"(lift height), and measure again, the degrees its changed will be the degrees you need to move upper A frame back or lower A frame out to get back same camber

Usually the camber adjustment bolts are on upper A frame and come in degrees of offset
2WD and 4WD can be different

They are usually listed with max. degree of offset, so 2deg, 3deg, 4deg, ect

So if you have a 3deg difference then get 4deg camber bushing/bolt, you can adjust a 4deg back to 3deg but can't adjust a 3deg past 3deg, so you want some wiggle room with this type of UNprecise measuring, lol
 
Last edited:

bobbywalter

TRS Technical Staff
TRS Event Staff
V8 Engine Swap
TRS Technical Advisor
TRS Banner 2012-2015
TRS 20th Anniversary
Ugly Truck of Month
TRS Event Participant
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
23,470
Reaction score
4,667
Points
113
Location
woodhaven mi
Vehicle Year
1988
Make / Model
FORD mostly
Engine Type
V8
Engine Size
BIGGER
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
sawzall?
Tire Size
33-44
My credo
it is easier to fix and understand than "her"
The ttb is a cock sawker.

None of the basics strictly apply ...especially spring rates.

You have a double adjustable concentric if I remember right.

You can think of it as a circle within a circle. North south east west.

North being the forward or headlight side of the beam. And we will be on driver's side...

Let's say dead center is zero camber zero caster.

It's not ..but I digress

At that setting of zero/zero with it installed and truck resting on its weight and jounced out....

You measure say with an angle gauge.. and your actual measurement is cambered neg 1 degree...and have 1 deg caster....so top of tire is leaning toward engine and it won't want to return to center due to low caster....

You will want to line the concentrics up so the knuckle side of bushing hole is turned until they are west and south of dead center to get the top of the wheel to come out and add more caster at the same time ..

....you plot from there until you get the caster and camber you want... which I base on over center or under center of pivot line....


Now...when lifting ...with just the spring..

On a ttb....you actually generally do better with a slightly higher spring rate.


There is a high lever ratio with beams.


The damn thing moves in 3 arcs and toe can affect caster and camber depending on ride height relation to pivot axis.

Driving is different then resting...if you are over center.

You actually want to toe out with zero camber so it stays that way driving.
 

rumblecloud

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2020
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
1,101
Points
113
Location
48022
Vehicle Year
1994
Make / Model
Ranger Splash
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
1-1/2 inch front leveling
Total Drop
Stock
Tire Size
31/10.50/15
My credo
What's the worst that could happen?
Ya know...I think I kinda understand a lot of what you're saying...more later.
 

Sponsored Ad


Sponsored Ad

Staff online

Member & Vendor Upgrades

For a small yearly donation, you can support this forum and receive a 'Supporting Member' banner, or become a 'Supporting Vendor' and promote your products here. Click the banner to find out how.

Truck of The Month


Kirby N.
March Truck of The Month

Recently Featured

Want to see your truck here? Share your photos and details in the forum.

Follow TRS On Instagram

TRS Events

25th Anniversary Sponsors

Check Out The TRS Store


Sponsored Ad


Sponsored Ad

Sponsored Ad


Amazon Deals

Top