Camber adjustment, shop confused

[4x4junkie]

You're assuming independent shops do training, after what I saw during 42 years at the dealer I think that's optimistic. We used to pay $5000+ per year to Ford for the "Value Package"- access to online training, manuals, etc. It wasn't "mandatory" but if a tech couldn't access web training to do the prerequisites, he wasn't eligible to go to classroom training and his certification would expire. No certs means any warranty claims with his ID would not be paid. But it wasn't mandatory to but the "Value Package".
We bought a Hunter Hawkeye Elite alignment system several years ago (for only $60,000) and it contained alignment manuals that showed how to adjust most vehicles. Most systems have similar features for the tech to access IF he wants to. Many alignment "techs" are of the set-the-toe-and-let-her-go philosophy, or they'll get everything in the green(meaning within specs) and ship it. Problem is, for example- if the toe-in is at max allowable and the camber is at max positive allowable- it will chew the outside edge off the tires.
If it ain't set to the preferred specs, it ain't aligned.

My thought with an independent shop (especially one staffed by a father and his son(s)) is that they would have much more hands-on experience regardless of whether they "officially" trained or not, simply due to the much lower (or even non-existent) turnover rate at such shops. No amount of training can cover every possible scenario that might be encountered in the field that would make a proper alignment difficult anyway (such as a vehicle with extensive aftermarket modifications where one part might not be quite agreeing with another). This again is something that becomes easier for one to figure out based on past experience. High turnover tends to interfere with that.

 

[19Walt93]

There's no substitute for experience but training has to come first. I didn't give turnover any thought, when I retired in 2017 most of my crew had been with me 10 years or more- one service advisor started in 1985, one in 1995, one tech started in 1982, one in 1986, 2 in 2000 and the 3 "new guys" had been there 5 years or more.

 

[ericbphoto]

The point is, the TTB or TIB suspension is a minority. It is simple, once you understand it. But understanding it requires someone who "wants" to learn it and do the job and, preferably, someone who has experienced it before and cares about doing alignments correctly. You want to find a shop with employees who are dedicated, not just showing up each day and hoping for a weekly paycheck. This is becoming rare these days. An older, well established offroad shop may be a good place, especially if they are familiar with Fords and not just the popular Jeeps and Tacomas.

I have some friends with a Jeep. They were having trouble with steering - tire wear, death wobble and just ain't unsafe steering. They went to 3 or 4 different alignment shops and all either sold them unnecessary parts that didn't correct the issues or told them "Your truck is modified. That's just how it is going to be now." Finally, they found a reputable offroad shop. The owner there drove the Jeep, inspected it, then fixed it without any new parts. It was a geometry problem that none of the other shops understood. Simple adjustments. My friends #Down-South Offroad and Outdoor were thrilled and now have peace of mind for their trip to Moab after the Smokey Mountain Jeep Invasion. Who you talk to and trust makes a huge diffetence.

 

[scotts90ranger]

I've done my own alignments for years, had the wife's car checked before and it passed... tape measure and calibrated eyeball gets you close enough for government work... I kinda gave up on getting my '90 aligned good, every time I get it all nice it migrates within 50 miles... I blame the bad angles from the stock radius arms (it's on the list...). No it's not perfect but I'm not doing 120mph or anything, nothing has had any goofy behavior and most things anymore are only adjustable on the toe... I drive 20k a year, my Geo Tracker had 55k on the 50k mile tires that are on it right now, been rotated once, perfectly even wear, '97 Ranger has about 35k on the $60 tires (used, I didn't balance them when I mounted them either, slight vibration at 60) I put on it that haven't been rotated and are wearing fine. If I had $1k tires I might care more...

My friend/coworker/boss has a '08 Jeep Rubicon I believe, 4" lift, all sorts of new parts thrown at it trying to get it to stop doing goofy bump steer stuff, been into the tire shop numerous times... I took one look at the steering geometry from the front and found the problem... the trac bar relocation bracket was put on upside down, made it more steep instead of less steep, axle was pushed over one way, steering link and trac bar crossed instead of being parallel... fixed...

Anymore finding anyone that knows anything older is a crapshoot...

 

[eightynine4x4]

I'm operating on a non existent budget for a while and considering doing a DIY camber adjustment of the wheel just to get it upright again to prevent weird tire wear before when i go for a proper alignment later this year at a place that is reputable with custom suspensions.
For now, am I out of my mind thinking that I can lift the passenger side a number of times and adjust the bolt/nut a little this way or that until the wheel is vertical when dropped down and under load?
I know from the article linked above ( https://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/winter2008/steering_tech.shtml ) that this adjustment nut is for both camber and caster. No idea how it works yet.
The wheel is noticeably leaning inward up top, outward up bottom, as pic'd here. Not horrendous but not good.
DON'T MIND MY STRAP-ON BLINKERS!!! I'm half way done converting from 2nd gen nose to 1st gen and don't have the valance or signals yet.

 

[ericbphoto]

That "nut" you are referring to is an eccentric bushing. As you rotate it, it pushes the top of the wheel in or out or forward or back. Concentrate on camber and just take whatever caster you get. They make a 2 piece adjustment bushing that has one eccentric inside another. That gives you more control of caster almost independently from camber. It takes a while to get used to them.

As you adjust the camber, it will affect the toe. So you have to double check both of them until you get it dialed in.

 

[eightynine4x4]

That "nut" you are referring to is an eccentric bushing. As you rotate it, it pushes the top of the wheel in or out or forward or back. Concentrate on camber and just take whatever caster you get. They make a 2 piece adjustment bushing that has one eccentric inside another. That gives you more control of caster almost independently from camber. It takes a while to get used to them.

As you adjust the camber, it will affect the toe. So you have to double check both of them until you get it dialed in.

Thank you!
I’ve done DIY toe adjustment already so can quickly incorporate that process as I set this stuff.
Haven’t tried camber/caster though. Attached is a zoomed in pic of the adjustment system. I’ve highlighted what appears to be three distinct pieces of the equation.. yellow nut, orange nut, and blue which is some kind of ring piece around base of orange nut.
I think the yellow nut needs to be fully loosened first of all to allow any adjustment of the larger orange nut which is in fact the camber nut.
Does this orange really affect caster too? Seems from other videos that there are two adjustment points on a wishbone shaped bar that sits horizontally above this area, and on that bar there’s a point in towards front of center and point towards rear of center, so it makes sense to me that adjusting either point will also adjust caster (and also toe), but in my truck I’m not sure I see that system.
In any case, am I correct about the purposes of the yellow nut and orange nut?
What is the blue ring? Is that not supposed to move and is just part of the fulcrum system for orange nut? It looks a little strange becsuee there’s a little extra nub that shoots up and appears to limit motion of the orange nut, so I’m concerned I won’t be able to turn the orange nut at all, like this is a permanent factory setting for camber or something.
I’ll go ahead and get some PB Blaster on this stuff in the mean time and hopefully I can adjust this stuff later today once I’ve figured out what the hell im doing.
Thank you!!!

 

[scotts90ranger]

I never dove that deep in a Dana 28 but I know they're slightly different than a Dana 35...

If it works like I expect it would the yellow holds the orange to the balljoint and the blue is part of the axle housing to keep the orange from turning. The Orange part is the eccentric so it moves the ball of the upper balljoint around in a circle, if you take the top nut off you will likely be able to see the offset. Moving the balljoint changes everything

 

[bobbywalter]

There's no substitute for experience but training has to come first. I didn't give turnover any thought, when I retired in 2017 most of my crew had been with me 10 years or more- one service advisor started in 1985, one in 1995, one tech started in 1982, one in 1986, 2 in 2000 and the 3 "new guys" had been there 5 years or more.

That explains so much.....

 

[bobbywalter]

I was waaaay better at ttb alignments at 20 then 50.

 

[4x4junkie]

What Scotts90ranger said above is correct.
You need to loosen the nut (yellow), then you'll have to break loose the ball joint stud taper by beating on the axle beam right next to the bushing with a hammer (or maybe thread the nut upside down onto the threads to protect it, and then beating downward on the stud itself might pop it loose... It can potentially be a PITA). Once the taper is broke free, you lift up the bushing (orange) past the nubs, and rotate it to adjust the camber (caster), then push it back down, engaging it with the nubs.
Because of the older D28 design, there are only 8 positions you can put the bushing (if you get the above-mentioned 2-piece eccentric bushings, the amount of available adjustments becomes much greater).


Are both of your front wheels cambered in at the top about the same amount? If so, an easier way to fix this might be to simply add a few 1-1/4" I.D. washers under your lower coil spring seats. This would gain you a half-inch or maybe a bit over increase in suspension height at the same time as correcting the negative camber.

 

[eightynine4x4]

What Scotts90ranger said above is correct.
You need to loosen the nut (yellow), then you'll have to break loose the ball joint stud taper by beating on the axle beam right next to the bushing with a hammer (or maybe thread the nut upside down onto the threads to protect it, and then beating downward on the stud itself might pop it loose... It can potentially be a PITA). Once the taper is broke free, you lift up the bushing (orange) past the nubs, and rotate it to adjust the camber (caster), then push it back down, engaging it with the nubs.
Because of the older D28 design, there are only 8 positions you can put the bushing (if you get the above-mentioned 2-piece eccentric bushings, the amount of available adjustments becomes much greater).


Are both of your front wheels cambered in at the top about the same amount? If so, an easier way to fix this might be to simply add a few 1-1/4" I.D. washers under your lower coil spring seats. This would gain you a half-inch or maybe a bit over increase in suspension height at the same time as correcting the negative camber.

This makes so much sense now, thank you! I was about to chime back in here and ask if perhaps the orange nut was in fact only course positionable in increments due to that little blob of steel on blue ring pressed against a face of the orange nut. So yeah, it is.
No, the drivers side wheel is not off in camber, to the eye at all. So I have to just tackle this wheel alone.
So the “orange” bushing-nut thing is NON threaded? The goal is to just free it up, then lift it up the shaft enough and rotate and put back down in new position? I wonder how much tension there will be. Maybe I’ll set something up on the ground to press the bottom of wheel inward towards truck so that it’s easier to turn the bushing into that direction of camber that it needs to go.
I’m still struggling to understand how this bushing effects caster though. Seems like caster is permanent/fixed. I don’t see any means to moving the wheel forward or backward in relation to front of vehicle. Does anybody know if that’s the case with this axle design?

 

[bobbywalter]

This makes so much sense now, thank you! I was about to chime back in here and ask if perhaps the orange nut was in fact only course positionable in increments due to that little blob of steel on blue ring pressed against a face of the orange nut. So yeah, it is.
No, the drivers side wheel is not off in camber, to the eye at all. So I have to just tackle this wheel alone.
So the “orange” bushing-nut thing is NON threaded? The goal is to just free it up, then lift it up the shaft enough and rotate and put back down in new position? I wonder how much tension there will be. Maybe I’ll set something up on the ground to press the bottom of wheel inward towards truck so that it’s easier to turn the bushing into that direction of camber that it needs to go.
I’m still struggling to understand how this bushing effects caster though. Seems like caster is permanent/fixed. I don’t see any means to moving the wheel forward or backward in relation to front of vehicle. Does anybody know if that’s the case with this axle design?

In the rust belt....it can involve destruction.

If you have some heat and a air hammer... give it a try and it may free up.

Otherwise I just rip it all apart and antisieze it all back together with the good aftermarket unit. 2.25 or better bushing. It's easier to deal with using a 1 1/8 wrench later.

 

[eightynine4x4]

In the rust belt....it can involve destruction.

If you have some heat and a air hammer... give it a try and it may free up.

Otherwise I just rip it all apart and antisieze it all back together with the good aftermarket unit. 2.25 or better bushing. It's easier to deal with using a 1 1/8 wrench later.

“ 2.25 or better “ meaning a physical dimension of the orange bushing nut?

When you say destroy the parts/system, you’re saying demolish out the whole stud / ball joint and also orange bushing and yellow nut? Haven’t looked at how the ball joint fastens to wheel system below yet.

I assume the “blue” ring with tab on it should remain and this tab will mate up against faces of a new orange bushing nut?

 

[bobbywalter]

The adjustment range of 2 degrees.