California on fire...

[Curious Hound]

Tree hugger groups out there have been getting their way and preventing the forest service from doing controlled burns. Controlled burns are important to minimize the dry underbrush that helps these fires get out of control so fast. The negligence involved in the empty reservoir is another huge failure.

 

[Jim Oaks]

I've travelled across Kentucky and West Virginia on many occassions and seen them doing controlled burns cleaning up the forest floor. Important forest maintenance.

 

[Uncle Gump]

An once of prevention... you all know the rest.

If i ever hear the word... misinformation again... it will be too soon.

 

[Bill]

if people couldn’t afford the insurance in tha location where they were living, maybe they should’ve moved to a less expensive area where they could afford the insurance and live responsibly. I know that sounds very cold hearted when the disaster is still ongoing, but these people placed themselves in a position to experience disasters that were predictable, and elected people who had other priorities.

Except, there are numerous places where the insurance rates for average cookie-cutter working class suburban homes have skyrocketed in places that nobody ever thought would be in the path of destruction. Nobody would have ever thought Coffee Park or Altadena would have neighborhoods burnt. Flooding never came across the minds of the small communities along the rivers in Helene because it never happened in anyone's lifeteme. If you are in the Northeast or in CA, OR, WA, and already living in the most affordable areas you are stuck. I would be in that position if I owned a home here. There really isn't anywhere I could go within the western half of the country where I could improve affordability. When taking cost of living and income and job opportunities into account I don't think there's anywhere that would be an improvement. Job opportunities are one of the primary reasons why expensive places are expensive. Some form of preventative mitigation plans needs to be implemented based on potential risks in a given area and work toward those goals to reduce the costs of these events in the future becaue it many cases it isn't as simple as saying don't live here, live there. What if I move there and the Mississippi River has another great flood? Most people are live in the places that are available to reside in. Most places were built where they are due to convenience or resources. The end result is we have people living in areas that have a high risk of flooding due development around ports and water based transportation and today these places are the most affordable places to live for most people. In a perfect world I would agree. But, the couple making $60K a year with a few kids is living where they can afford to live, and in a civilized society, they should receive assistance and that assistance is going to cost more in Altadena or Seattle than it is in a Midwestern city. I'm not so concerned with the people who have $5M homes they built in the path of destruction because they like the view. Chances are a disaster is going to be a minor inconvenience for those people.

 

[Jim Oaks]

Don't worry, emphasis has been put on creating a website to address misinformation as LA is burning to the ground.

I'll see your one wtd, and raise you two words: global warming.

Time magazine just did a story titled "L.A. Fires Show the Reality of Living in a World with 1.5°C of Warming"

I saw another news outlet talking about the fure and about how we can no longer blame global warming.

This huge fire storm wasn't caused by one thing. A variety of factors all coming together made it what it is.

I'm sure a lot of people will use it as a tool to support a variety of arguments.

We all can learn from this:

I've seen reports of people fleeing and forgetting their pets, and leaving with nothing more than the clothes on their back.

For years I've kept a go bag packed with a change of clothes and food for 3-days. I'm sure there are more things I could do to be better prepared such as having copies of important documents. Maybe having all of my important documents save on a flash drive in my go bag or in a folder on my phone.

It doesn't have to be a wildfire. It could be fire, flood, hurricane, earthquake, tornado, snow or ice storm, civil disturbance, etc.

Are you prepared to flee if you need to. What if you leave for the day and return to find your home is gone?

What is your plan and where will you go?

I bet there's 100,000+ people in California right now that are wishing they were better prepared or had done something differently.

 

[Bill]

I've travelled across Kentucky and West Virginia on many occassions and seen them doing controlled burns cleaning up the forest floor. Important forest maintenance.

They do that here too. Despite what the media tells you, that is done here. There are several other issues that are factors in the West. One is the national forests had a policy for decades of exterminating any fire. The reasoning behind that was to preserve as much lumber as possible and it was thought that preventing fires would increase the yield. Along with that came the practice of planting the same species in an area. You will see places in the national forests with dense stands of Douglas fir, ponderosa pine, or some other tree. The problem with that is explained in Agriculture 101 textbook. If you practice monoculture on thousands of acres and the right conditions for a pest that likes that crop comes along, you have problems. So, we had a series of dry years and the bark beetles went crazy, then something started a fire on a hot day and spread rapidly. We also have a lot of vegetation that is dependent on fire. Their leaves contain resins that burn easily. If there aren't periodic fires to thin out that vegetation you end up with thick vegetation with a 30ft wall of flames. If there is wind carrying glowing embers downwind, it ignites fires ahead of the main fire.

The fires are destructive in one way, but fire is part of the natural cycle of life. People living in the western part of the country have problably done this at some point, but if you don't live west of the Rockies and happend to drive through an area that has burnt recently, if you have a place to stop and walk out into the burn area the following spring you are in for a treat. All kinds of neat plants sprout up as the weather warms. Some species require their seeds to be exposed to fire to germinate.

 

[Bill]

There’s no doubt about that. The insurance companies aren’t going to lose money… at the end of the day they’ve got CEOs and investors to make richer.

They put their money in another pot that can be moved around easily. When we had the fire that wiped out the town of Paradise the investors sold their investments and now the customers of PG&E are paying high rates to pay for maintenance that PG&E should have done before paying investors. I'm sure the insurance companies have a similar thing going on.

 

[Jim Oaks]

I heard about this years ago after a major forest fire;

"When a plant "pops open and spreads seeds from the heat of fire," it is most likely referring to a plant with serotinous cones, like certain species of pine trees, where the heat from a fire melts a resinous seal, causing the cone to open and release its seeds widely; this adaptation allows the plant to regenerate after a fire has cleared the area for new growth."

It's been shown how fires benefit the forest. The problem is when people and forests don't coexist well.

It would be fascinationg to see what mother nature did to these devastated areas of we just left them.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

And yet, the US Navy uses saltwater pumps and sprinklers to hose down their decks and protect their ships.

US Navy has the manpower and planning to maintain those systems. They are blanked shut and drained when ships go into storage as well. I doubt many private homeowners would do well keeping it in order for a just in case situation.

For any other aviation nuts out there, flightaware app in LAX area is pretty interesting

 

[Bill]

Don't worry, emphasis has been put on creating a website to address misinformation as LA is burning to the ground.

I'll see your one wtd, and raise you two words: global warming.

Time magazine just did a story titled "L.A. Fires Show the Reality of Living in a World with 1.5°C of Warming"

I saw another news outlet talking about the fure and about how we can no longer blame global warming.


Are you prepared to flee if you need to. What if you leave for the day and return to find your home is gone?
What is your plan and where will you go?

Yes, Jim. I, like many other Americans, have grown tires of disinformation. I don't know if the general public really believes it, or if it's just a matter of they want disinformation to be true. Either way, It's having a really negative impact on the country as a whole. There's a reason things are done differently in different parts of the country. There's different terrain, different climatic variables, and even cultural differences, and the latter is part of what makes the different regions what they are and there is a place for everyone somewhere in the country.

I didn't want to mention global warming. I've had formal education in weather and climate. I just find it tiring to explain things to people who get their information from politically motivated media, then tell me the people with PhDs working for NOAA and NASA don't know anything, so we should defund those organizations. So, I avoid the topic. I understand the issue with EVs, but I have nothing against them. I think they present some issues for some people, but they will work find for someone who commutes across town to a grocery store. I don't care for the idea of an EV mandate because I think funding can be done to find a way to decrease the cost of synthetic fuels. That is, making fuels by recycling carbon instead of adding more of it to the atmosphere. It would allow us to continue to use ICE engines for the applications where they are needed.

Downtown Sacramento and some of the suburbs surrounding Downtown here are at risk for flooding. It will happen at some point. Where I'm at is at a low risk. I'm walking distance from the American River. But, if it floods here it would likely be from a levee break downstream from my location that would have to move back toward me. If it does flood here it will get the carpet wet. The street is at 48ft. The front door is just above 50 ft (if I did my calclations correctly), and the maps state the water elevation would be at 50 ft. Nonetheless, it would create an access issue. All I really need to do is grab the cats, the laptop, and a few more items and go. If it ruins everythign else it will probalby be a blessing in disguise becasue I have too much stuff. I would probaby through the camping gear in the back of the truck just in case accomodations are taken up, which is another problem that nobody mentions. When Oroville had the evacuation due the issues with the dam, there were a surprising amount of people who appeared in the Walmart parking lots here. Oroville is about 70 miles away. Sacramento is the closest large city for them. Hwy 50 is all uphill from here and there is plenty of open space to camp in, if it comes to that. I would probably go down to Fresno the next day where family is. I say the next day because I'm assuming a flood like that would submerge Hwy 99 and I-5, which would be a major issue for traffic moving north and south through the state.

 

[Jim Oaks]

US Navy has the manpower and planning to maintain those systems. They are blanked shut and drained when ships go into storage as well. I doubt many private homeowners would do well keeping it in order for a just in case situation.

I was looking at it on a HOA / neighborhood level, not individual.

 

[MaicoDoug]

One of our complete (well known) looser administrations demolished the 90% of the US Forestry Service which invented the "BLM", which doesn't care anything about forest fires, not doing any mandated under brush control, or even keeping the fire roads clear. The CCC (California Conservation Control) normally also kicked in keeping the lands in decent shape, but without the state & federal Department of the Interior, and those Forest officials, the forests burn.

Yes Jim, the Pinion Pine requires fire (high heat) to crack open it's seed. In the high Sierras, the Pinion Pine grows right up the tree line. Normal summer thunderstorms ignite these most wild fires every year.

In California & in many other states the fathers of those cities engage in bulldozing whole zip codes. Included in redesign of depressed areas become fresh property ready for new development and are largely responsible for the demolition. East Palo Alto, East Menlo Park, Old town Mt. View (my home town), and many, many others have been turned around representing a huge (10x) increase in tax revenue for the cities. I'm sure that cities like Pacific Palisades already had plan in place "If & When". As you already realize, California has long be in trouble with air quality, water shortages & wildfires. Not to mention the earthquakes. Add in the current demize of real estate values, which is on track to dive exactly like before, but the way the tax collectors propose, the current expected values are still on track to rise as they have always done, eventually.

Simply not affording to minimize the fire threat ongoing is to share the future plans of development, as proven in the past. Doubling down is SOP. Collection of federal funds to assist in relinquishing the fire threat is how they got this far with so little water on tap to fight such a disaster as this.

On Feb 9th, 1971 the Saugus-Newhall earthquake was largely caused by over pumping the water table in the mountains just north of the area. 36 foot drop in well levels in a single year at a brand new municipal owned water well field designed to supply what the county of LA was short of. They pumped without abandonment. 9 months after that all started, the 7.1 quake hit. I was there. Ended up working for USGS Technophysics. I have the report published by them. Lone Pine is another area where LA County owns 99% of the land & water rights. The whole so cal area has always and will always be starving for water resources. I'm just sorry for the aggressiveness of the real estate, state & city officials that failed those folks who lost everything once again. All do to excessive poor planning. If you live in the hills, having a pool in the backyard is a lifesaver for you & your neighbors.

During the Buffalo/Denver football game CBS had a graphic showing both team's logos with a burning split line between the two corners. WTG CBS.

 

[sgtsandman]

The more I hear and read about this whole thing, the more failure and places to point blame come to light. From the federal level on down to the local level, there have been all kinds of things going on that have created the "perfect storm". The average person is the one who is going to pay most dearly for this. Perhaps it will be the catylist to push people into paying closer attention to what their elected officials are doing or not doing and put more time and effort in to thinking about who should be in those positions. I doubt it but one can hope.

 

[snoranger]

Perhaps it will be the catylist to push people into paying closer attention to what their elected officials are doing or not doing and put more time and effort in to thinking about who should be in those positions. I doubt it but one can hope.

Nope… what will happen is a large portion of the country will hear just enough from their political side that blames the other side (doesn’t matter which one is which). They will stop listening to anything else and accept that as the only fact that matters. It will just divide the country even more… just like everything else that’s happened in the past XX number of years.

 

[Brain75]

I know he hasn't been on since Dec 15, but has anyone heard anything from/about @4x4junkie, just curious how he is doing?