Buying American and a thought experiment

[RobbieD]

Some of you probably remember people bashing Japanese imports in the 60's and 70's. I'm not talking about autos, but all the other junk that was coming in from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong back then. Cheap junk that a lot of people bought. We had very little imported from China at that time, and quite honestly, what was, was pretty decent quality. The trend started then. The Chinese saw a market and lept on it, but you can't blame the cheap junk coming from China completely on the Chinese. The bean counters that chose to take advantage of the cheap labor to increase their corporate bottom line are as complicit as any Chinese worker. Historically, the Chinese are excellent craftsman and great problem solvers. They're also smart and take advantage of opportunities that come their way.

I agree; this is accurate and well stated.

 

[8thTon]

Some of you probably remember people bashing Japanese imports in the 60's and 70's. I'm not talking about autos, but all the other junk that was coming in from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong back then. Cheap junk that a lot of people bought. We had very little imported from China at that time, and quite honestly, what was, was pretty decent quality. The trend started then. The Chinese saw a market and lept on it, but you can't blame the cheap junk coming from China completely on the Chinese. The bean counters that chose to take advantage of the cheap labor to increase their corporate bottom line are as complicit as any Chinese worker. Historically, the Chinese are excellent craftsman and great problem solvers. They're also smart and take advantage of opportunities that come their way.

As for the cost of the "new" first gen Bronco's, when you consider the cost of a new F-150 reasonably equipped is approaching $50k, $95K for a vehicle with a total production number of around 200 per year is not that ridiculous. Especially considering it's a niche market where only big spenders are going to be buying anyway.

Yup, never underestimate your competition.

 

[19Walt93]

Some of you probably remember people bashing Japanese imports in the 60's and 70's. I'm not talking about autos, but all the other junk that was coming in from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong back then. Cheap junk that a lot of people bought. We had very little imported from China at that time, and quite honestly, what was, was pretty decent quality. The trend started then. The Chinese saw a market and lept on it, but you can't blame the cheap junk coming from China completely on the Chinese. The bean counters that chose to take advantage of the cheap labor to increase their corporate bottom line are as complicit as any Chinese worker. Historically, the Chinese are excellent craftsman and great problem solvers. They're also smart and take advantage of opportunities that come their way.

As for the cost of the "new" first gen Bronco's, when you consider the cost of a new F-150 reasonably equipped is approaching $50k, $95K for a vehicle with a total production number of around 200 per year is not that ridiculous. Especially considering it's a niche market where only big spenders are going to be buying anyway.

Japanese cars have never deserved the reputation they have now. My neighbor bought a new 68 Toyota Corona(Camry, today), in 2 years it rusted so bad it buckled in the middle and the doors wouldn't shut. We sold Couriers(unfortunately) to people who traded in Toyota's and Datsun's with rust holes in the floors at 2 years old and shift levers pulling out of the floor. I said 'unfortunately" because rust would bleed out of the body seams wile under 12/12 warranty. We took in a 2-3 year old Honda Accord with gaping rust holes in both fenders and the rear quarters that would fog the driveway with oil smoke when it was idling. We sold our first Escort wagon in the fall of 80 and took in a 78 Subaru in trade. Subaru luckily used to mount the spare tire above the engine, the front suspension had rusted so bad the shock towers collapsed against the tire. Magazines like Consumer Reports created the Japanese mystique, when the Mazda Navajo was introduced, CR said it felt "tight and Japanese". The first few years came with double sided Ford keys. A few years ago CR announced that they would no longer give Toyota's positive reviews WITHOUT DRIVING THEM- for years they just rubber stamped Toyota's as good vehicles. Just ignore the pile of rusted frames behind our local Yota dealer and the occasional unintended wide open throttle without stepping on the gas. This post is too long already so I'm not going to get into Takata air bags.

 

[G8orFord]

I originally had that sentence reading "I'm not necessarily talking about autos...", but edited it because I didn't want to start an argument over the automobiles themselves. It was much broader than that.

 

[ericbphoto]

A 100% USA built truck will never happen.... The price of steel and the stamping alone would put the cost well above 100k.

I can't argue the steel price. But I'll tell you a lot of the stamping us being done right here. I work at the BMW plant here in SC. Our stampings are done by suppliers right here in the Carolinas. I have friends who worked in the Nissan plant in Tennessee. They do their own stamping there and stamp parts to supply other Nissan plants in the US. Not sure about the others. Point is, the rolls of sheet steel may be coming from overseas. But it's being made into parts here.

The auto industry is more complex than most of us realize, myself included. I'm sure I only know the tip of the iceberg. There are all kinds of crazy rules and laws out there in our country and other countries. Some countries preserve jobs for themselves by requiring that a manufacturer set up a plant there to do "X" % of the production. Out of our plant, we ship what I would call kits to other countries where a BMW plant finishes the assembly. I see bare painted car bodies leaving my paint shop every day as part of these kits. International trade is crazy. And that goes for exports AND imports.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Things like tools and alternators, I will go top shelf/dollar. However stuff like cut off wheels for my angle grinder? Harbor Freight it is.

There is a difference, the “better” ones turn into dust at a much slower rate.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Japanese cars have never deserved the reputation they have now. My neighbor bought a new 68 Toyota Corona(Camry, today), in 2 years it rusted so bad it buckled in the middle and the doors wouldn't shut. We sold Couriers(unfortunately) to people who traded in Toyota's and Datsun's with rust holes in the floors at 2 years old and shift levers pulling out of the floor. I said 'unfortunately" because rust would bleed out of the body seams wile under 12/12 warranty. We took in a 2-3 year old Honda Accord with gaping rust holes in both fenders and the rear quarters that would fog the driveway with oil smoke when it was idling. We sold our first Escort wagon in the fall of 80 and took in a 78 Subaru in trade. Subaru luckily used to mount the spare tire above the engine, the front suspension had rusted so bad the shock towers collapsed against the tire. Magazines like Consumer Reports created the Japanese mystique, when the Mazda Navajo was introduced, CR said it felt "tight and Japanese". The first few years came with double sided Ford keys. A few years ago CR announced that they would no longer give Toyota's positive reviews WITHOUT DRIVING THEM- for years they just rubber stamped Toyota's as good vehicles. Just ignore the pile of rusted frames behind our local Yota dealer and the occasional unintended wide open throttle without stepping on the gas. This post is too long already so I'm not going to get into Takata air bags.

I havent owned a japanese vehicle in a very long time (last one was a civic believe it or not i got in a trade deal i had for some other shit)

But since i dont much care about their cars ill talk about their trucks....

Fair warning like most of my outlooks its prolly outdated but here we go...

Every japanese truck ive been around (as in, knowing who owns it) has been weak. Weak in the sense that compared to the american counterpart, it had less power, less durabilty, and would not take abuse as well as something american.

When i first bought rusty #1 a buddy of mine had a (at the time) couple year old Nissan/Datsun truck. Compared to the ranger it was flimsy, underpowered, and wouldnt do half the stuff my ranger did.

Japanese trucks are fine and reliable for the guy who does nothing but haul a few 2x4s home from lowes, but when you really start to use them they fall apart like tissue paper.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

I can't argue the steel price. But I'll tell you a lot of the stamping us being done right here. I work at the BMW plant here in SC. Our stampings are done by suppliers right here in the Carolinas. I have friends who worked in the Nissan plant in Tennessee. They do their own stamping there and stamp parts to supply other Nissan plants in the US. Not sure about the others. Point is, the rolls of sheet steel may be coming from overseas. But it's being made into parts here.

The auto industry is more complex than most of us realize, myself included. I'm sure I only know the tip of the iceberg. There are all kinds of crazy rules and laws out there in our country and other countries. Some countries preserve jobs for themselves by requiring that a manufacturer set up a plant there to do "X" % of the production. Out of our plant, we ship what I would call kits to other countries where a BMW plant finishes the assembly. I see bare painted car bodies leaving my paint shop every day as part of these kits. International trade is crazy. And that goes for exports AND imports.

I've always wondered if I could convince a manufacturer to sell me an unassembled vehicle. Bare metal as well.

Dear gods, the improvements you could make in just rustproofing alone......





Step one..... send everything out to be galvanized.....

 

[snoranger]

I've always wondered if I could convince a manufacturer to sell me an unassembled vehicle. Bare metal as well.

Dear gods, the improvements you could make in just rustproofing alone......





Step one..... send everything out to be galvanized.....

See if FRPP is still doing the Body in White program.

 

[ericbphoto]

I've always wondered if I could convince a manufacturer to sell me an unassembled vehicle. Bare metal as well.

Dear gods, the improvements you could make in just rustproofing alone......





Step one..... send everything out to be galvanized.....

Our bodies get dipped in a phosphate bath and then some bath we just call "E-coat". Both are electrochemical processes that supposedly bond the chemicals to the metal. That's the "primer" coat of our process. Supposed to be better than galvanizing. Since they dip the bodies into the tanks, that stuff gets into all the nooks and crannies.

Later, after painting, all the interior cavities and voids are sprayed with some kind of waxy goop to coat and protect them from corrosion. Think of it as fluid film applied at the factory in all the places you can't reach.

I honestly don't know how well these bodies hold up to rust long-term. But it seems like we're trying to make them last.

 

[Blmpkn]

Step one..... send everything out to be galvanized.....

I was thinking about this the other day! One of those ideas that just hits you like a freight train halfway through the doobie.

 

[Uncle Gump]

I'll have what @Blmpkn is having...

 

[19Walt93]

Our bodies get dipped in a phosphate bath and then some bath we just call "E-coat". Both are electrochemical processes that supposedly bond the chemicals to the metal. That's the "primer" coat of our process. Supposed to be better than galvanizing. Since they dip the bodies into the tanks, that stuff gets into all the nooks and crannies.

Later, after painting, all the interior cavities and voids are sprayed with some kind of waxy goop to coat and protect them from corrosion. Think of it as fluid film applied at the factory in all the places you can't reach.

I honestly don't know how well these bodies hold up to rust long-term. But it seems like we're trying to make them last.

E coat isn't primer, it's what's under the primer. In the 80's to save money and reduce paint fume emissions from the factories,Ford tried paining directly over the sealer/E coat. If the customer kept the vehicle waxed, it worked fine. If they didn't wax it, the paint dried out and fell off. We spent a year doing warranty full paint jobs in the mid 90's under the Owner Dialog program.

 

[ericbphoto]

E coat isn't primer, it's what's under the primer. In the 80's to save money and reduce paint fume emissions from the factories,Ford tried paining directly over the sealer/E coat. If the customer kept the vehicle waxed, it worked fine. If they didn't wax it, the paint dried out and fell off. We spent a year doing warranty full paint jobs in the mid 90's under the Owner Dialog program.

Uh-oh. We're applying basecoat directly on the E-coat. But the paints may have changed since then, too. I won't profess to be a paint chemistry expert. I just know what I see happening every day at work. Our present process has only been in practice at this plant for the last 10-15 years at the most. A few years before I started, they were still applying a layer that they actually called primer. Now we don't. We also do not fully cure the basecoat before applying the clear coat. The base coat is still tacky when the clear goes on.

I just fix the equipment.

 

[Blmpkn]

I'll have what @Blmpkn is having...

Lol.. Context is important here.. This week it's been fireman Jack