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Are there benefits to Water Meth on Naturally Aspirated 3.0?

MankDeems3.0

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Had a bunch of time on my hands as I'm waiting to get my heads back from the machine shop. I've already gasket matched my ports, got the big throttle body and I've ordered 1.7 rocker arms in addition I asked them to cut 30 thou off my heads. I have the domed pistons w/ 49 CC Heads and my napkin math brought me to the neighborhood of 11:1 compression ratio. With my shopping list out of the way I started watching videos on Water meth noted benefits included lower cylinder temperatures, reduced knock and with proper tuning it has a nominal horsepower increase of like 10-15%. All sounds good to me, the Rouge Performance Vulcan Potential article mentions water injection but nothing of meth as it's probably 20 years old and in comic sans.

TLDR: I'm trying to go from 152 to 200-225 Horse with my setup. Is a camshaft upgrade or even a low jet Nos spray going to benefit me more than water meth? Would love to hear what your thoughts are!
 


Blmpkn

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Water/meth kits are usually used on forced induction applications, and start spraying once boost hits a certain point.

I'd wager you'd be better off with a cam upgrade.
NOS would be fun... but bottles are for babies 👶 😊
 

Roert42

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If anything I would think water meth would let you run lower octane fuel without knock. So, maybe instead of running 93 you could run 89 with the same amount of timing and not have issues.

Like Blimpkn said, normally you wouldn't kick in the water injection until you get over a certain PSI. Using a pressure switch to trigger the pump. That way you are only using it when under heavy load not all the time.
 

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It is challenging to connect the meth to work properly without boost. As stated above, a boost level above a certain value is what triggers the pump to kick on. With no boost, the meth pump would need to turn on at very low vacuum - but you cannot have the pump on when you are starting the vehicle (also very low vacuum) or you flood the plugs and it doesn't start. So you would need to rig up some manual on/off switch in addition to the low vacuum switch, and you would have to remember to turn that manual switch on and off each time you started and turned off the vehicle. I'm not aware of any system that does that automatically, although if you are good with wiring circuits you could make one the would only allow the meth to spray after the engine had been running for a certain time period.
 

Roert42

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My thought would be to have the pump trigger above a certain RPM.

Maybe we could look at a schematic and find a signal wire that goes hot above 3000 RPM.
 

Blmpkn

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don4331

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The 3.slow is prone to pre-ignition in stock form, so water injection is almost a must for 11:1.

As noted it's much easier to implement with boost as you can use the pressure from the supercharging to start the water flowing (technically, you don't even need a pump, you can use the pressure differential to "push" the water out.

For naturally aspirated (n/a), the trick is making a control system that work, yet is simple. You really only need water injection when 3 conditions are met:
1. The engine is warm up (as the guys are saying, you don't want it during cold start).​
2. Wide Open Throttle (WOT) or at least fairly close to it (Again, you don't need it while sitting in stop and go traffic)​
3. Oil pressure is good. (Don't accidently flood a warm engine in parking lot by pushing skinny pedal to floor).​

I'm not sure about rpms as variable; I'm pretty sure my Ranger pings when warmed up and with WOT even at some pretty low RPMs.

My solution would have 3 switches wired in series (throttle, water temp <or maybe even oil temp> and oil pressure). Then your pump only runs when all 3 conditions are met. Power of course coming from ignition, so no running with key off.
 

Roert42

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I like dons Idea.

Could use the Dummy switches for water temp and oil pressure, then maybe add a switch to the throttle body. Wire the two dummy switches to relays in series, then have the output of the second relay go through the switch on the TB.

Depending on the power the pump needs you could power the pump directly with the output from that switch or send the power to a third relay that would send power to the pump.
 

Blmpkn

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The 3.slow is prone to pre-ignition in stock form, so water injection is almost a must for 11:1.

As noted it's much easier to implement with boost as you can use the pressure from the supercharging to start the water flowing (technically, you don't even need a pump, you can use the pressure differential to "push" the water out.

For naturally aspirated (n/a), the trick is making a control system that work, yet is simple. You really only need water injection when 3 conditions are met:
1. The engine is warm up (as the guys are saying, you don't want it during cold start).​
2. Wide Open Throttle (WOT) or at least fairly close to it (Again, you don't need it while sitting in stop and go traffic)​
3. Oil pressure is good. (Don't accidently flood a warm engine in parking lot by pushing skinny pedal to floor).​

I'm not sure about rpms as variable; I'm pretty sure my Ranger pings when warmed up and with WOT even at some pretty low RPMs.

My solution would have 3 switches wired in series (throttle, water temp <or maybe even oil temp> and oil pressure). Then your pump only runs when all 3 conditions are met. Power of course coming from ignition, so no running with key off.
You think it'd still be necessary even with 93?
 

cbxer55

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I had an Edelbrock water injection unit on my 1970 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400 way back in 1980. I also mixed Isopropyl alcohol with the water, 50/50. It was mentioned in an article in either Car Craft or Hot Rod magazine at the time. So not an entirely new idea. Anyway, the edelbrock unit used a controller that worked off vacuum and rpms. Worked great. Had two nozzles, each one in one of the primary barrels of the four barrel carburetor.

Here in Oklahoma, there is a company that makes a qual-e-tee setup. Devil's Own. I recall people using that in non-boosted vehicles.

 

Roert42

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Most basic blue windshield washer fluids are 30/70 mix of methanol and water.
 

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Look at adding a Knock sensor circuit and interface, as a separate unit to do want you want

Or some year 3.0l computers used knock sensors, you may be able to use one and program an output for adding injection and changing spark timing
You will need to program the computer in any case for the changes you are making so maybe use a computer that has the knock sensor interface already
 

don4331

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Here in Oklahoma, there is a company that makes a qual-e-tee setup. Devil's Own. I recall people using that in non-boosted vehicles.
The Devil's Own product is what ModdBox uses for their 4.0 supercharger setup. https://modd.me/product/water-methanol-injection-kit/

You think it'd still be necessary even with 93?
And yes with 11:1 compression, the OP will still need help with keeping his 3.0 from pinging.

Look at adding a Knock sensor circuit and interface, as a separate unit to do want you want

Or some year 3.0l computers used knock sensors, you may be able to use one and program an output for adding injection and changing spark timing
You will need to program the computer in any case for the changes you are making so maybe use a computer that has the knock sensor interface already
Oh, I can build a full Rube Goldberg mouse trap for him; I was trying to apply KISS. :cool:

75098
 

MankDeems3.0

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Wow This blew up, Let's Start from the bottom, I made a few discoveries this morning.

Most basic blue windshield washer fluids are 30/70 mix of methanol and water.
I'll be dipped in S***

I based my compression ratio off of @evanesce69's post back in 08 but didn't read it in detail where his piston dome size changes the calculation. this means I will be running a much lower ratio than 11:1. I have an 05 taurus motor with domed pistons and the 49cc chambers which is closer too 9.5:1 that I cut 0.03 off of. If we follow the rule of thumb 10 Thou = 1/4 of a point compression increase I think it'll be much closer to the 10-10.25 than 11:1 CR.

I've always been fond of the Tom Morona M90/M112 adapter plate but I'm building the truck for my dad and I want mods that will work consistently with minimal maintenance. I don't know what options I have for tuning factory PCM. I love the standalone megasquirt in my MZ6 but I'm not going to install another standalone after I did my Mazda. that is a fun weekend car that can run whenever I want it too. I think my money and time would be better spent on a Cam or a 50-75 wet shot. thanks for the input guys learned a ton!
 

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