44 and 9 or 60s

[93 Ohio Ranger]

Well having a hard time deciding. I sold my little 2 inch lift and wheels the other day. I want to go one tons but i know they will cost me some money and are a pain in the ass to find around here complete.

I want to run 36-38s and i play lightly on rocks, trails, washouts, mud and some street driving. Its going to have a 302 mildly built and undecided on a auto or zf5speed.

Would the 44 with alloys,4.88 or 5.13s and a locker hold up?

 

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

Yes, but by the time you build up the 44 with alloy axles you could have bought a stock d60.

 

[93 Ohio Ranger]

A set of 60s around here is like 1200 bucks. I can get a set of79 f150 44 and 9 inch for around 150 bucks.

 

[4x4junkie]

Last time I checked...
Good alloy shafts = $500
Alloy u-joints = $400
+ $$$ for your D44...

That's $1000 right there.

Just get the 60. You'll be much happier in the end.


Oh, and you keep saying "60s" or "a set of 60s"... just be aware a rear 60 is nothing special (a 31-spl 8.8" is stronger), I'd look for any one of: D70, Sterling 10.25" or a GM 14-bolt (10.50") to throw in the rear with your 60 front.

 

[93 Ohio Ranger]

Last time I checked...
Good alloy shafts = $500
Alloy u-joints = $400
+ $$$ for your D44...

That's $1000 right there.

Just get the 60. You'll be much happier in the end.


Oh, and you keep saying "60s" or "a set of 60s"... just be aware a rear 60 is nothing special (a 31-spl 8.8" is stronger), I'd look for any one of: D70, Sterling 10.25" or a GM 14-bolt (10.50") to throw in the rear with your 60 front.

I want a matching set and a dana 60 will handle fine in the rear. It just depends on money cause thats always the deal breaker.

 

[NMB2]

just be aware a rear 60 is nothing special (a 31-spl 8.8" is stronger), I'd look for any one of: D70, Sterling 10.25" or a GM 14-bolt (10.50") to throw in the rear with your 60 front.

Shit, mine must be ready to explode any day now


30spline vs 31spline shaft has almost no difference. Everything else about a 60 is superior, in every aspect. 60 has the capability of going 35spline, and even came stock 35spline in easy to find ford applications.

sterling/70/14b are also good candidates though, just not with a small tire.

 

[COPPERHEAD85]

I have a 60 and a stearling 10.5 Ill let the pair go for $700.......

 

[4x4junkie]

Shit, mine must be ready to explode any day now


30spline vs 31spline shaft has almost no difference. Everything else about a 60 is superior, in every aspect. 60 has the capability of going 35spline, and even came stock 35spline in easy to find ford applications.

sterling/70/14b are also good candidates though, just not with a small tire.

It's not so much the spline count that's most significant here, it's the spline's pressure angle (which changes the spline's root depth).

Most (if not all) Dana axles use 30° splines, whereas Ford uses 45° splines (8.8" & 9") that cut less deeply into the shaft. Add to that the one extra spline and it adds up to at least a 1500ft-lbs different in shaft strength. That's fairly significant if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, a 60 rear is certainly a good strong axle (and the fact it's FF has it's benefits too), but typically you'd want the rear axle to be stronger than your front, as it's the one doing ~70% of the work when you're offroad (and of course it does 100% of the work while in 2wd). Plus the fact the 70/14b/Sterling are easier to find, too.

 

[Bennybooster]

I have a 60 and a stearling 10.5 Ill let the pair go for $700.......

get this

 

[93 Ohio Ranger]

get this

Give me a truck to drive and gas money for damn near 650 miles and i will and the money for them.

hahah, once i get this job i plan on going down south and picking up a set of dana 60s i seen on craigslist they are way cheaper down there and it will be a nice drive.

 

[NMB2]

It's not so much the spline count that's most significant here, it's the spline's pressure angle (which changes the spline's root depth).

Most (if not all) Dana axles use 30° splines, whereas Ford uses 45° splines (8.8" & 9") that cut less deeply into the shaft. Add to that the one extra spline and it adds up to at least a 1500ft-lbs different in shaft strength. That's fairly significant if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, a 60 rear is certainly a good strong axle (and the fact it's FF has it's benefits too), but typically you'd want the rear axle to be stronger than your front, as it's the one doing ~70% of the work when you're offroad (and of course it does 100% of the work while in 2wd). Plus the fact the 70/14b/Sterling are easier to find, too.

I understand where you're coming from, and it all looks good on paper. I realize that the 45* pressure angle offers a slight advantage due to the larger minor diameter, but there is nothing to back up a 1500ft-lb gain. I even just tried finding some numbers for the last 30 minutes to bring validity to that claim. Bobby's axle breaking machine directly compared the two (1.3" 30spline 30* and 45*) and there was no torque difference, just twist difference, hardly a difference to me. As well as my real world experience saying otherwise.

As for the rear needing to be marginally stronger than the front due to it doing 70% of the work offroad... eh I dunno man. Thats assuming that you are wheeling up hill 70% of the time. My front end takes way more of a beating than my rear does, and there is no questioning the "hardness" of the trails I run.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, I'm just saying that your comment about an 8.8 being better than a 60 was a bit of a stretch, even with stock 30spline shafts in that D60.

 

[wahlstrom1]

As far as a wheelin axle goes, full float win's hands down.... You can get nit picky from there. I've bent a few 8.8" flanges, which is why my new housings are running full float outer rears.

If your gonna SAS and go anywhere near rocks with bigger then 35's and a v8 go w/tons, anything else is a waste.... I tried!

 

[NMB2]

As far as a wheelin axle goes, full float win's hands down.... You can get nit picky from there. I've bent a few 8.8" flanges, which is why my new housings are running full float outer rears.

If your gonna SAS and go anywhere near rocks with bigger then 35's and a v8 go w/tons, anything else is a waste.... I tried!

my rear 60 is semi-float because it was easier/cheaper to make 35spline... FF doesn't make the shaft any less prone to breakage, and with a 35spline alloy I'm not worried about breaking it.

I dont think 35" is where you need to step into 1-tons, maybe reevaluate your driving skills/style. This is my buddy Jason's jeep on built 44/9" with 38.5 SX's, and a V8

They do pretty good, but I will say 38" tire range is where you need to start seriously considering D60's.

 

[4x4junkie]

I understand where you're coming from, and it all looks good on paper. I realize that the 45* pressure angle offers a slight advantage due to the larger minor diameter, but there is nothing to back up a 1500ft-lb gain. I even just tried finding some numbers for the last 30 minutes to bring validity to that claim. Bobby's axle breaking machine directly compared the two (1.3" 30spline 30* and 45*) and there was no torque difference, just twist difference, hardly a difference to me. As well as my real world experience saying otherwise.

As for the rear needing to be marginally stronger than the front due to it doing 70% of the work offroad... eh I dunno man. Thats assuming that you are wheeling up hill 70% of the time. My front end takes way more of a beating than my rear does, and there is no questioning the "hardness" of the trails I run.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, I'm just saying that your comment about an 8.8 being better than a 60 was a bit of a stretch, even with stock 30spline shafts in that D60.

Well, here's what I get for not saving every article I read (well, I probably DO actually still have it, but I'm not really wanting to dig through 15 years of back issues of three magazines right now lol, and it's getting late)

I distinctly remember reading about attempts by one of the major magazines to deliberately break various axle shafts (I tried looking on the mag's web pages, but I can't seem to uncover the article). I recalled it stating they broke a 30 spline (D44) shaft at something around 4800ft-lbs. I also recall them attempting to break a Ford 8.8 shaft but their machine maxed out at 6500 ft-lbs and they could not break the shaft.

I looked at the (more recent) Bobby Long results you mentioned, they show a stock 30-spline D44 shaft breaking at 5000ft-lbs. Since that's what I could find for a 30-spline reference, I'll start with that since they don't show a 8.8 shaft.

On this page about ¾ the way down is a chart comparing strength of different spline configurations referenced to a 30-spline shaft having a 45° pressure angle (a GM 12-bolt).
A 30-spline 30° shaft is 3% weaker, but a 31-spline 45° shaft is 10.7% stronger. So if I'm adding that properly (correct me if I'm not), the 31 spline 45° shaft is 13.7% stronger than the 30-spline 30° shaft. At 5000ft-lbs that's an increase of 685ft-lbs (5685).
But we're not done yet...
Perhaps I should've included in my last post above, Ford 8.8" shafts are made from 1050 steel. According to this page (and assuming the Dana shafts are the much more common 1040 steel), the 1050 adds yet another 38% strength increase. 5685 + 38% is 7845 ft-lbs.

And yes, any time you're climbing uphill is when you're putting the most strain on your rear axle (this includes climbing up rocks too). Pointing the rig up an obstacle shifts much of your rig's weight from the front toward the rear. With less weight up front, it can't pull as much before losing traction, so the rear is forced to make up for it. Just because this may only be some fraction of your total travels in 4WD doesn't make it any less important (when a rig breaks, it's typically while trying to drive up something, no?).
I guess if your rig is exceptionally nose-heavy, this could make for an exception...

 

[NMB2]

Well, here's what I get for not saving every article I read (well, I probably DO actually still have it, but I'm not really wanting to dig through 15 years of back issues of three magazines right now lol, and it's getting late)

I distinctly remember reading about attempts by one of the major magazines to deliberately break various axle shafts (I tried looking on the mag's web pages, but I can't seem to uncover the article). I recalled it stating they broke a 30 spline (D44) shaft at something around 4800ft-lbs. I also recall them attempting to break a Ford 8.8 shaft but their machine maxed out at 6500 ft-lbs and they could not break the shaft.

I looked at the (more recent) Bobby Long results you mentioned, they show a stock 30-spline D44 shaft breaking at 5000ft-lbs. Since that's what I could find for a 30-spline reference, I'll start with that since they don't show a 8.8 shaft.

On this page about ¾ the way down is a chart comparing strength of different spline configurations referenced to a 30-spline shaft having a 45° pressure angle (a GM 12-bolt).
A 30-spline 30° shaft is 3% weaker, but a 31-spline 45° shaft is 10.7% stronger. So if I'm adding that properly (correct me if I'm not), the 31 spline 45° shaft is 13.7% stronger than the 30-spline 30° shaft. At 5000ft-lbs that's an increase of 685ft-lbs (5685).
But we're not done yet...
Perhaps I should've included in my last post above, Ford 8.8" shafts are made from 1050 steel. According to this page (and assuming the Dana shafts are the much more common 1040 steel), the 1050 adds yet another 38% strength increase. 5685 + 38% is 7845 ft-lbs.

And yes, any time you're climbing uphill is when you're putting the most strain on your rear axle (this includes climbing up rocks too). Pointing the rig up an obstacle shifts much of your rig's weight from the front toward the rear. With less weight up front, it can't pull as much before losing traction, so the rear is forced to make up for it. Just because this may only be some fraction of your total travels in 4WD doesn't make it any less important (when a rig breaks, it's typically while trying to drive up something, no?).
I guess if your rig is exceptionally nose-heavy, this could make for an exception...

there is no chance in hell the 31spline ford shaft is 7850tq range, and until someone shows me on a machine like bobbys, I will never believe it. Why? because I have wheeled WAY too much, and seen way too many shaft breakages to know better. As a matter of fact, not but a month ago I watched that ZJ grenade his rear shaft, not even working it that hard (in my opinion).

I will say that a rig usually breaks facing up hill, but I will also say 9 times out of 10 it is front axle related or drivetrain related, not rear axle.

You have to remember, I also wheel completely different caliber of trails than you, alot of different obstacles that put different forces on the truck than a simple "shift of weight to the rear" that full bodied, small tires/axled rigs like yours are not capable of attempting. I'm talking about facing up hill but your front tire is sucking down into an undercut or against something, 3 wheeling it laying on your side.... whatever, you get my point.

Do you really think an 8.8 could live under my truggy? Not a chance.

Am I disagreeing that the rear needs to be as strong as the front? No, I am disagreeing that the rear needs to be some superbeast of an axle compared to the front. I would upgrade the front axle before the rear any day of the week.

Also please don't think I am trying to shrug you off as some newbie, because obviously you are not, I have seen your pics and we have been on these forums together for what, the last 7yrs? I am just saying that we wheel on different levels, and sharing with you my real world experience, and true opinion.

I am not experienced enough in those formula's to tell you if they add up that way, but I can tell you that I know for a fact, from my trail time, that the 31spline shaft is not that strong. 6k range I could accept, maybe even 6.5k...... not 7.5k