Propane powered 2.3 won't start.

Mikejsmith1985 · Apr 22, 2015

Hi guys, I'm here as a last ditch effort to figure out this issue before I try a gasoline conversion. The motor is in a boom lift and the manufacturer is out of business and I'm struggling to find support anywhere. The motor should be solid mechanically the last couple times it ran everything was quiet and silky smooth and then it just quits. No sputtering, no hesitations, no rough idles just stops like I turned the key. I can't get it to start again, the issue is it won't fire it will turn over but no spark. There isn't an obd port to hookup and look for codes. I was hoping maybe someone has seen this in a gas powered motor and could suggest if perhaps there is a commonly faulty sensor or something. I know a bad sensor can cause some crazy stuff! If I can't resolve im going to try buying an old ranger and swapping the intake and fuel systems over with a ranger ECU and see if I can get it running again.

Thanks for any suggestions!

RonD · Apr 22, 2015

There is really only one sensor that can cause no start, that is the Crank Position(CKP) sensor.
Behind the main pulley you will see some "teeth" the CKP sensor reads those teeth, that starts the spark and fuel delivery.
CKP sensor rarely fails, not never, but rarely.
CKP sensor will connect to the ICM(ignition control module), these do fail, or get frayed wires, usually located on the front of the intake but..................not sure on your rig

Propane and gasoline work pretty much the same way, I assume you are using a carb since engine is old enough for company to be out of business, lol.

Do you know what year the engine is?

Does it have a distributor?
If so then it wouldn't have CKP sensor
It would have a TFI ignition and those also have suspect modules that quit when heated up

scotts90ranger · Apr 22, 2015

Yeah, need more info on the ignition system. Most everything propane powered is carbureted, injection wasn't common industrially until like '06.

Since it doesn't have spark, converting to gas won't get you anywhere, the 2.3L has been used for most everything for a long time, so it could have several types of ignition systems. If you can't get what's on there working there's a good chance something will work that isn't too horrible.

Do you know who did the engine setup? The company I work for does fuel systems for marine and industrial engines but I don't think they did any 2.3's, and they stopped dealing with Ford's in like '93

snoranger · Apr 23, 2015

IIRC, Ford switched from dizzy to DIS around '88 -'89 on the 4cyl industrial.

The DIS system used a special module that had a vacuum hose connected to it to control the timing (No need for an ECM), but it used a standard crank position sensor. Its been a few years since I've worked on one.

I've never worked on a 2.3 industrial with a distributor, I have worked on a few smaller Ford 4cyl industrial engines with distributors... none of them ran TFI ignitions. Just a standard pickup and a canister coil.

Let us know what you have, or (even better) post some pics, and we'll get it running.

Mikejsmith1985 · Apr 23, 2015

So I'm very embarrassed/sad to say, that I'm a moron! I went to go get the specs and pics, this lift actually uses an 01 2.5 not an older 2.3 like I was told when I bought it.

Here are the pics of the system but I think I need to get this moved to the 01 and up forum and adjust the title so it shows 2.5 although I think they are still fundamentally the same motors...

Kenneth S · Apr 23, 2015

It's a 2.5 Lima so it belongs in this section. I take it that you already checked the timing belt to see if not broke?

alwaysFlOoReD · Apr 23, 2015

I'm not very knowledgable about propane systems, I found this site to help;
http://fuelsforum.rasoenterprises.com/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=f3b594b538202da90f4ad35485ab86c7

Mikejsmith1985 · Apr 24, 2015

Kenneth S said:
It's a 2.5 Lima so it belongs in this section. I take it that you already checked the timing belt to see if not broke?

Timing belt is good the motor does turn over still just no spark at the moment. I found some info on testing ICM and the crank sensor. It's instructions from a 2.3 but I think it will work. Also the ICM doesn't appear to be standard ford issue and that 1-800 # on the side got me no where... Fortunately I did find this place which has been great so far!!!

alwaysFlOoReD said:
I'm not very knowledgable about propane systems, I found this site to help;
http://fuelsforum.rasoenterprises.com/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=f3b594b538202da90f4ad35485ab86c7

Thank you I'll start snooping around here too!

Mark_88 · Apr 24, 2015

Part of the problem with every post on here is about 90% of it is a guessing game. It's not so much that you're a moron as an inexperienced end user with a problem to solve and no idea how to go about it.

We all started out somewhere, with little or no knowledge and we either learn from our own or others mistakes or we keep making the same mistake over and over again because, at that point, we would qualify as a moron...or some other old psychological name for someone who is not quite all there.

So...take heart...when I read your post I didn't know anything about the propane configuration (still don't) but have seen some trucks with propane tanks over the years...what counts is we get a better picture of your problem and this usually leads to an eventual solution...and from that solution you gain valuable knowledge and insight that might inspire you some day to see someone with the same or similar problem and be able to pay back the wonderful world of Karma or Truckma...

tomw · Apr 24, 2015

Zenith fuel systems is still in business. see: http://www.zenithfuelsystems.com/prod_vaporizers.htm

for their LP or propane vaporizers. Some lp or propane systems are actually multi-fuel in that they use gasoline for starting, and the lp or propane for running.
The ignition might have a specialized connection if there is multi fuel involved. The timing for lp/propane would be different for gasoline.
I would look for any sort of connection to the coil pack[4 wires leading from it to the spark plugs] to the zenith box. If none, then you can expect a simpler installation.
The ignition system just needs a trigger to know where the engine is in its cycle - i.e., #1 on compression or at TDC, and it can count the teeth on a wheel to figure out from there where the other plugs should be fired using 'fixed logic'. There is not a lot of 'figuring' going on to time the spark, as a fixed spark would work pretty well for the application. In addition, the coil pack needs ground and power voltage.
If the Zenith system is linked to the coil, I would be firing off a letter to zenith fuel systems in VA asking for a schematic on the 0-60026c system you have...
I more or less would expect that the ignition system is plain old FoMoCo, and would look for Ford part numbers on it.
I would also be checking for the presence of volts or ground at the proper points on the coil pack. In their computer run systems, the computer provides ground to energize the coil which is provided 12v from the ignition switch or relay. The ground allows the coil to complete a circuit and build a magnetic field. When the ground is removed the coil fires, feeding the plug. There's not a lot to it. I don't think you have a computer involved, but there might be an EDIS module [electronic distributor-less ignition system]
tom

Mikejsmith1985 · Apr 25, 2015

So after reviewing everything you've all provided me here is where we are:

1. Zenith is still in business and so is "Terex" technically; although all boom lifts are now marketed as "Genie" Neither company has been able to provide me any customer support which ultimately got me here.

2. This motor is not efi and was setup originally to run dual fuel however the gasoline portion has been disconnected, at this time no plans to resurrect that.

3. There doesn't appear to be a Ford ICM all wires seem to funnel into that Zenith box, that box may just be an ICM or an ECM/ICM combo not sure at this point.

4. The crank sensor is a 2 wire sensor not 4 wires as expected based on my reading.

I've discovered that on the 2 wire crank sensor both wires are returning signals to the ICM so I plan to probe both wires and crank if I don't see any voltage or very low voltage; I believe that part if not all of the problem is the crank sensor.

Does anyone happen to have a correct part # for the LRG425 2 wire crank sensor and Ford ICM (carbureted version)? My search returns many options for both parts. If the crank sensor is good I believe the ICM is bad and from a cost standpoint I think I would like to wire in a Ford OEM ICM rather than dealing with that Zenith box as I've not been able to get any info on wiring schematics or even overall function of what it does.

My understanding is there is a Holley and Zenith Carburetor, I believe I would need to switch to the Holley if I wanted to go to a Ford ICM if anyone has a part # for that also I would greatly appreciate it! Or at least confirm my logic is sound.

Thanks again for all of the feedback! looking forward to getting this thing running again!

RonD · Apr 25, 2015

Quick test for CKP(crank position) sensor is just to test if you have spark, get a spark tester or ground an old spark plug and hook it up to one the wires from the coil.

Even an old timing light will flash if spark is present.

Bad CKP sensor will show 0 spark, not intermittent, no spark at all.
But so would bad ICM.

To test 2 WIRE CKP on it's own you need a volt meter set to AC volts, yes AC

Have CPK disconnected from ICM and connected to meter, + and - don't matter, it's AC.
Turn engine over
If it generates AC voltage then it is good, usually you will see .3 to 1volt AC often going up and down.
CKP sensors rarely fail, not never but it is a rare occurrence.

No ECM(computer) is needed if there is no fuel injection, ICM modules can be run on their own.
But there may be one on an industrial machine for safety and emission reasons.

Interesting read here on the Zenith system: http://www.zenithfuelsystems.com/sm.pdf

It does use an ECM
Good flow chart for LPG and engine won't start on page 9:7

Mikejsmith1985 · Apr 25, 2015

RonD said:
Quick test for CKP(crank position) sensor is just to test if you have spark, get a spark tester or ground an old spark plug and hook it up to one the wires from the coil.

Even an old timing light will flash if spark is present.

Bad CKP sensor will show 0 spark, not intermittent, no spark at all.
But so would bad ICM.

To test 2 WIRE CKP on it's own you need a volt meter set to AC volts, yes AC
Have CPK disconnected from ICM and connected to meter, + and - don't matter, it's AC.
Turn engine over
If it generates AC voltage then it is good, usually you will see .3 to 1volt AC often going up and down.
CKP sensors rarely fail, not never but it is a rare occurrence.

No ECM(computer) is needed if there is no fuel injection, ICM modules can be run on their own.
But there may be one on an industrial machine for safety and emission reasons.

Interesting read here on the Zenith system: http://www.zenithfuelsystems.com/sm.pdf

It does use an ECM
Good flow chart for LPG and engine won't start on page 9:7

Great information thank you! CKP tested bad picked up a new one hope to have it installed tomorrow and I'll report back if it was just that or if there is more to it.

Mikejsmith1985 · Apr 26, 2015

Got the new CKP in and no dice. But again thanks to all of the valuable information you've all provided I was able to get some of the wiring figured out on the Zenith box and there are 2 power wires coming into that box and neither are giving me any voltage. Side note I've noticed in the past that during cranking/operation this box will heat up after installing the new CKP and trying to crank I've noticed its not heating up. SO this leads me to believe either the power to this box has just recently failed or the heat generated in the past was a sign of failure which I've over looked. More troubleshooting and updates to come. Thanks to everyone for your feedback I couldn't have made it this far without you!

Mark_88 · Apr 26, 2015

Hi Mike,

EDIT: I'm putting this up top...I just watched a conversion video that might help both of us understand a bit more about how they work...it's only ten minutes long and might trigger something in your mind that needs to be done to get this running...

Amazing! I didn't know they were that easy to convert...well, this one was because they had all the parts for that particular engine...but...I'm sure they chose the carb and other parts for this application...but...it answered many of my questions...lol...

I hope that helps more than my previous peck and hope method...

Propane powered 2.3 won't start.

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