• Welcome Visitor! Please take a few seconds and Register for our forum. Even if you don't want to post, you can still 'Like' and react to posts.

Harmonic Balancer Marks - Actual TDC Confirmation


98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
Hoping the right knowledgeable savior can help me with my issue. Have a 1998 3.0L Ranger. At 235k installed reman’d ATK / Gearhead Engines and updated to the newer 2003-2008 3.0L long block, it’s bored +1.0mm so ~3.07L actual. Used all original manifolds, have driven it 5k miles so far, but there’s a code and poor mileage which I’ve been unable to resolve.

Can anyone please confirm is there's anything fatally wrong with updating to the newer long block? Believe it's possible and recommended. Driving strong and well so far.

Before discussing the specific code and the massive effort I’ve put in trying to resolve it, I’d like to confirm these basic items which could be the root of the issue.

Can anyone factually confirm the harmonic balancer timing/tone gap/actual TDC alignment so these items are confirmed correct before going further?

I was chasing some issues on the old engine prior to replacement and replaced the Harmonic Balancer. The stock Ford balancer for 1998-2008 3.0L is Ford # F7DZ-6316-AA. This was discontinued, and I installed Dayco PB1488N on the old engine which was running fine without any code issues.

The 2003-2008 3.0L also uses the same Ford # F7DZ-6316-AA so believe there’s no compatibility issues there with the recommended Dayco PB1488N.

What I am finding that is strange, but believe how the engine is designed, is that the #1 Actual TDC is 60° later than the Harmonic Balancer 0° mark.

When actual TDC is lined up with the timing mark, the keyway on the balancer shows at 12:00 from the balancer info, which I believe is also correct. Have NOT removed my balancer bolt to confirm that actually, just from images.

Why is the Actual TDC 60° later than the Balancer 0° mark?

Can anyone confirm these aspects of my engine seem correct and the computer knows the Actual TDC based on the balancer tone gap reading from the Crank Position Sensor?

Ignition timing measured by timing light on #1 wire seems correct to Actual TCD and is firing ~12° BTDC. So the engine running and ignition timing correct seems like many things are correct, trying to rule out any root issues with the balancer / tone gap location.

Photo shows the actual TDC location vs Balancer 0° mark and the balancer aligned with Actual TDC to the cover timing mark.

Thanks in advance for any help that can be provided. This site has always been great so far and hoping I can resolve this long nagging issue.

Thanks,
Todd
 

Attachments



kimcrwbr1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
6,044
Reaction score
46
Points
48
Location
maplevalley WA
Vehicle Year
1983
Make / Model
ford
Engine Size
2.8l
Transmission
Automatic
Use a piston stop tool to confirm true TDC any time you troubleshoot. There are many videos on how to check True TDC without that confirmed your flying blind.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
Thanks and I'm aware of the piston stop tool but do not have / did not use one. I used a probe in the spark plug hole and rocked the crank through #1 TDC many times to find #1 TDC. I have high confidence that I'm within a few degrees of Actual TDC as I've marked. For sure the Balancer 0° mark has the piston almost halfway down the stroke.

To summarize my questions:
Can anyone please confirm is there's anything fatally wrong with updating to the newer long block? Believe it's possible and recommended. Driving strong and well so far.

Can anyone factually confirm the harmonic balancer timing/tone gap/actual TDC alignment so these items are confirmed correct before going further?

Why is the Actual TDC 60° later than the Balancer 0° mark?

Can anyone confirm these aspects of my engine seem correct and the computer knows the Actual TDC based on the balancer tone gap reading from the Crank Position Sensor?

Thanks again
 

kimcrwbr1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
6,044
Reaction score
46
Points
48
Location
maplevalley WA
Vehicle Year
1983
Make / Model
ford
Engine Size
2.8l
Transmission
Automatic
I am sorry your misunderstanding me the computer does not know where tdc is you must use a piston stop tool. You may be close the piston stop will give you a exact reading to tell the computer.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
As far as I know, the ECU reads the location of the tone gap on the harmonic balancer to identify where the #1 TDC is. That is not changed regardless of #1 TDC measurement method.
 

kimcrwbr1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
6,044
Reaction score
46
Points
48
Location
maplevalley WA
Vehicle Year
1983
Make / Model
ford
Engine Size
2.8l
Transmission
Automatic
Is that a new harmonic balancer? Is it a two piece balancer with the rubber bushing? All I am saying is you can confirm the groove on the balancer is telling the computer true TDC with a piston stop tool! They are cheap easy to use and handy when diagnosing ignition issues. Allways disconnect the battery before installing the piston stop.
 

adsm08

Senior Master Grease Monkey
Supporting Member
Article Contributor
Ford Technician
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
34,623
Reaction score
3,613
Points
113
Location
Dillsburg PA
Vehicle Year
1987
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Tire Size
31X10.50X15
With everything put together and the crank at TDC, that gap needs to be pointed at your crank sensor. If it isn't your balancer is wrong.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
adsm08 - With the Actual #1 TDC at the timing mark, the gap is clearly not at the CPS, located as shown in original post pic. CPS not shown but mount holes are there.

Somehow it's running well (besides code+mileage), and the same balancer was on the original motor without any code/mileage issues. Balancer is a Dayco PB1488N replacement, OE are discontinued.

Don't believe the rubber has spun as the balancer is only 1 yr old and have not done anything crazy to it.

I guess the computer can adjust a tone gap out this far and somehow fire ignition timing properly as it's running relatively issue free?

These exact items are what I'm trying to figure out. Thanks
 

adsm08

Senior Master Grease Monkey
Supporting Member
Article Contributor
Ford Technician
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
34,623
Reaction score
3,613
Points
113
Location
Dillsburg PA
Vehicle Year
1987
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Tire Size
31X10.50X15
What is your code? I didn't see where you told us that part.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
Was trying to get these base details confirmed/denied, which could be a root cause. The Code is P1309 Misfire Monitor Not Enabled. I've read the stickies/posts on here and can re-cite them by heart. Great info but the exact timing details seem vague, but maybe due to a balancer issue I have. Have timed the CMPS a dozen times trying all the varieties that seem to work for others. Believe for this engine it's 10° ATDC, have seen both the balancer tone gap and 6 or 7 teeth after tone gap as recommended - which does line up with my actual TDC. Have also seen 0° recommended to timing cover mark and CPS. Chilton's and Ford manual are reported to vary.

Do you positively know the correct timing for this? / balancer +10° TDC mark or Actual +10° TDC is uesd? I've replaced the sensor / syncro way back and either just got lucky or there is truly a wide range that it will work and the computer can tune it from there. Nothing at all has worked for me with a massive effort.

I've tried all / every logical variety of CMPS timing to try and rule this out.

Maybe I truly have a balancer tone gap issue but I have 5k on the reman'd motor and it runs powerfully, no drivability besides P1309, poor mileage. EVAP monitor also won't set but believe misfire monitor needs to be functioning for this to enable.

Believe I'm very certainly have the CMPS timed on the #1 compression stroke based on checking intake/exhaust flow/pressure from plug hole AND using timing light to check sensor flag position with sensor off, sensor flag is in gap of syncro at #1 TDC. So don't believe I'm 180° off.

Prior to trying all the CMPS timing events, I've replaced the CMPS and syncro with OE (syncro was 2nd in the truck, a Dorman and believe it was starting to display the chirp).
Tried a reman'd ECU I had on hand for diagnosing another issue early in the reman install. Original functioning ECU still is installed currently.
Pretty much ALL sensors are new OE or some SMP.
Tried the Misfire Monitor enable drive cycle. Fun doing a redline shift on a relatively new motor, but confident it's seen high rpm break-in now.
Was hoping my last ditch effort would be to spend diagnostic money at the dealership. Was only slightly helpful and didn't really get me much closer to solution besides questioning my balancer timing. Which still could be an issue.

Have not run breakout box checks to check CMPS voltages, have not spent money on that tool, ~$300. Requested specifically from Dealer but they said they don't do that anymore and ran other diagnostics.

Possible I have a wiring issue? Ground issue? Does NOT throw any other codes.

Dealer gave me feedback on possible balancer issue. Confirmed EVAP system works if forced. Warm idle was slightly high 930rpm, I'm measuring 880-920rpm. IAC is commanded at 35%, typically 30% (unsure what this means.) MAF at hot idle is 1.2v, typically 0.8-1.0v - brand new Ford OE MAF - not sure what I can do about this, if any of these parameters are related to the P1309. Dealer says they MAY all affect the monitor, but didn't specifically say all DO affect the monitor and didn't want to dump more money on that diagnostic effort.

I've been low priority part time trying to solve this with 50+ hrs, $500+ dollars and no closer. At this time I'm dropping everything to solve this so I can confirm I have a worthy investment and finish out the restore. Not much left but I've been unable to solve this nagging code / poor mileage.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Last edited:

adsm08

Senior Master Grease Monkey
Supporting Member
Article Contributor
Ford Technician
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
34,623
Reaction score
3,613
Points
113
Location
Dillsburg PA
Vehicle Year
1987
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Tire Size
31X10.50X15
If you have a repetitive C1309 you probably have cam/crank sync errors, which could be related.

But the balancer, front cover, and crank sensor don't change between 98 and 08. I guess the next step would be to remove the balancer and see if the woodruff key is intact.

And to make sure you were actually checking cylinder 1 and not 4.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
Thanks for your direct insight. Guess I should pull the crank bolt and check the keyway locations and make sure they're still aligned.

Regarding #1 vs #4. Passenger side, front cylinder is the #1 cylinder as I understand.

The CMPS setting I have seems ever so slightly rougher than the others I've used and would like to set it to the factory setting. Believe it's now at a hail mary alternate right now.

If I have a conflict with #1 TDC and balancer 0° mark, which should I choose to reset the CMPS timing as I further chase the code? Would like to have it set to best possible as I work to resolve the root cause of this issue.

Any chance there's a ground wire or electrical gremlin issue at work here? Should I confirm the engine ground wire? There are no other issues with the truck besides the P1309, poor mileage, EVAP not setting. Everything is bone stock except the reman'd engine.
 

adsm08

Senior Master Grease Monkey
Supporting Member
Article Contributor
Ford Technician
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
34,623
Reaction score
3,613
Points
113
Location
Dillsburg PA
Vehicle Year
1987
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Tire Size
31X10.50X15
Yes, passenger side, front cylinder is #1. I have seen many people make that mistake, going to the driver's side, and I have had dyslexic moments and done it myself once or twice. One of those things you just gotta check.

I would not worry about the cam sensor right now. You have issues that seem to jive with stuff not firing off at the right time. You also have a known issue with your measured TDC not being where it should on the balancer. I think I'd take the balancer off and check, it can't hurt anything, and it won't cost you anything.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
Thanks. Noted will check the balancer, keyway, key etc. The original balancer is one of the few items I tossed, but I'm sure the old and new lined up in every way possible before I installed it. Wondering if this rebuild has the crank keyway in an odd location causing these issues.

With the tone gap so far out from #1 Actual TDC, how can the ECU fire the ignition properly? Or does it do some very rapid compensation to tune to the correct firing order? Doubt it could be 60° late and still run well.
 

98Ranger3L

New Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Vehicle Year
1998
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
3.0
Transmission
Automatic
Going to be very late Monday/Tuesday before I can look at the keyway and key positions.

Sort of expecting to find the arrangement as my 2nd picture based on what I'm seeing outside.

The crank keyway is supposed to be at 12:00 when #1 is at TDC correct? (For tone gap tobalign w CPS, would need to have crank keyway 60°CCW from shown.)

Still curious about how it could run well if the tone gap is actaully 60° late.

All the other balancer images I can find, when balancer keyway is at 12:00 and wouldn't have the tone gap lined up with CPS, they're like my picture. So still trying to find how they work or what balancer correction I could possibly make. TBD on what I actually find but not seeing clear misalignment of anything externally.

Will advise what I find after opening. Thanks
 

Sponsored Ad


Sponsored Ad

Staff online

Member & Vendor Upgrades

For a small yearly donation, you can support this forum and receive a 'Supporting Member' banner, or become a 'Supporting Vendor' and promote your products here. Click the banner to find out how.

Latest posts

Truck of The Month


Kirby N.
March Truck of The Month

Recently Featured

Want to see your truck here? Share your photos and details in the forum.

Follow TRS On Instagram

TRS Events

25th Anniversary Sponsors

Check Out The TRS Store


Sponsored Ad


Sponsored Ad

Sponsored Ad


Amazon Deals

Top