Won't start...

... aka the continuing misadventures of the Frankenford (formerly the Rickety Rocket).

Ok, the basics, 86 Ranger, 2.0 4cyl, 5 spd. Starter turns, but the engine doesn't fire up. Drained my little toy booster pack trying it.

History:
Picked it up in July, ran albeit a bit hard to start and idles rough. Usually took 2 to 3 minutes to warm up to where you could drive it. Also significant lack of power on hills, although peppy (at least as much as can be expected) on level ground.
First repair was replacing the wiring from the ICM to the distributor as the wires were resting on the steering shaft and insulation was crumbling off of it. No effect on starting or running.
Second repair was replacing the battery with a right sized one after it died and needed a jump (drained by toy booster pack). Had charging system checked and it passed muster along with the batter (albeit too small as it turned out).
By this time its getting colder, and warm up is approaching five minutes, and its known to backfire at starting, occasionally when first moving out.
Third repair came after it completely died. Hard to start, rolled out after five, truck starts losing power, then surges, then dies. Restarts some struggle, then repeat two more times. Coasted into a commuter lot, and that was it, won't start any more. Decided to do the HEI conversion that i just finished (Bridgeton CarQuest kicks ass ifn you're in/around STL and need a good parts store) since the ICM looked 30 years old. Also the coil tested low between the primaries (touch under 1/2 the proper measure), so i figured the upgrade couldn't hurt and might even fix the problem. No dice, runs or rather doesn't run exactly the same as before the change so it looks like i did the conversion right.

So now the question becomes what now? Prolly be tomorrow before i can use starting fluid to see if it'll fire up that way, but what else should i look for? Any probable cause?

Coud be a number of things....spark to all plugs is good? Fuel pump pushing fuel? Could be a clogged or soon to be bad fuel pump. Any engine codes come up?

straycat said:

Coud be a number of things....spark to all plugs is good? Fuel pump pushing fuel? Could be a clogged or soon to be bad fuel pump. Any engine codes come up?

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Points to the specs, "This is an old, base bare bones first generation, power nothing, stick and carbureted, mechanical fuel pump, no computer so no codes. As noted we're going to get a can of starting fluid and test things when we have a chance and two people (one to start it, one to spray). I figure if it fires on starting fluid but won't run, its likely a fuel issue, with replacing the fuel filter being the cheap first step. If it doesn't run on starting fluid i'm assuming that means we've got no spark, and since we've replaced the ignition, there's not much left to figure. Could the wire problem i mentioned have damaged the distributor, since the ICM controls the advance? If so is that something that can be repaired or replaced without replacing the whole distributor?"

If you are getting spark (easy to see by placing a plug attached to the plug wire and ground in on the block) then that is a good sign. If no fuel is pumping (disconnect the fuel line and see if fuel comes out). Might want to drain the fuel tank...it might have a ton of crap in it.. You can get a distributer rebuild kit if it needs one...or check on Ebay and see how much for a new one. Maybe you can find a nice clean used one from a scrapyard? The carb might need a rebuild from sitting and that in not unusual for this to occur.

straycat said:

If you are getting spark (easy to see by placing a plug attached to the plug wire and ground in on the block) then that is a good sign. If no fuel is pumping (disconnect the fuel line and see if fuel comes out). Might want to drain the fuel tank...it might have a ton of crap in it.. You can get a distributer rebuild kit if it needs one...or check on Ebay and see how much for a new one. Maybe you can find a nice clean used one from a scrapyard? The carb might need a rebuild from sitting and that in not unusual for this to occur.

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My plan is to check the lines for damage.
Then use starting fluid to see ifn it starts, if it don't, then we prolly don't have any spark.
If it fires but won't run, unhook the fuel filter and see if fuel comes out when its cranked.
If no fuel comes out, then unhook the feed line and see if i can get fuel from that.
If not, then i either need to drain the tank or replace the line.

I wouldn't be surprised for it to be a distributor issue, how much trouble would bare wires from the ICM cause after all?
To the best of my knowledge, the truck had been in regular use until i bought it, so the only potential carb issues are age or somebody messing with it since this thing was obviously a redneck custom at one point.

Another thing...it might be a timing issue. If you have not tried this, try to advance and retard the distributer a bit and see it that works.

I'm willing to bet it is the ICM. I had mine go out on my '84 several times before I put a GM HEI in. Sometimes it would go bad just by parking the truck, and other times it went bad while driving (interesting experience on the highway BTW). I'll also add that you can still have spark when the unit is bad. It's almost like an interment spark. The first time the ICM went bad it took some head scratching to figure it out, but by the 5th time I got pretty good at diagnosing it! (My wires were frayed too)

I will add that the GM HEI has been flawless ever since!

rangerin said:

I'm willing to bet it is the ICM. I had mine go out on my '84 several times before I put a GM HEI in. Sometimes it would go bad just by parking the truck, and other times it went bad while driving (interesting experience on the highway BTW). I'll also add that you can still have spark when the unit is bad. It's almost like an interment spark. The first time the ICM went bad it took some head scratching to figure it out, but by the 5th time I got pretty good at diagnosing it! (My wires were frayed too)

I will add that the GM HEI has been flawless ever since!

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Points up at original post, "Already done."

straycat said:

Another thing...it might be a timing issue. If you have not tried this, try to advance and retard the distributer a bit and see it that works.

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Have to look up how to do that, but i was thinking that might have something to do with it to.

Javarod said:

Points up at original post, "Already done."

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No need to be sarcastic, was only trying to help. Big whoop if I missed that part of your post.

Fuel pump choice...

straycat said:

If you are getting spark (easy to see by placing a plug attached to the plug wire and ground in on the block) then that is a good sign. If no fuel is pumping (disconnect the fuel line and see if fuel comes out). Might want to drain the fuel tank...it might have a ton of crap in it.. You can get a distributer rebuild kit if it needs one...or check on Ebay and see how much for a new one. Maybe you can find a nice clean used one from a scrapyard? The carb might need a rebuild from sitting and that in not unusual for this to occur.

Click to expand...

Ok, a follow up now that we've done the starting fluid test. Fires nicely on starting fluid. Also did a visual check of the lines, all good.

So, we're down to either a clogged line or a bad pump, and with this being a 30 year old truck, i vote on the pump, although i am going to do more testing.

But, should i simply replace the mechanical, or install an electric? Electrical costs more, but which is more reliable?
If i were to go electric, should i just leave the old pump, or remove it and cover the opening (i'm assuming the FI 2.3 would have some manner of cover for that spot)?

Way to go....you got a motor running!! On all my old stuff when I lost a fuel pump I just replaced them with an electric unit and a block off plate. I would just go that route. At least you know you are getting spark since that starting fluid worked. That old carb might need to be serviced or replaced once you start driving it around a bit. Most likely a carb sitting for long periods of time just crap out on you.....lol.

straycat said:

Way to go....you got a motor running!! On all my old stuff when I lost a fuel pump I just replaced them with an electric unit and a block off plate. I would just go that route. At least you know you are getting spark since that starting fluid worked. That old carb might need to be serviced or replaced once you start driving it around a bit. Most likely a carb sitting for long periods of time just crap out on you.....lol.

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Laughs, "I expect it will. Bought the truck in July, its basically the spare vehicle as we have an 08 Cobalt here (never a GM product again, 3 recalls and counting, or was it 4?), which embarrassingly enough has an engine that's about the same size and twice the power. I've driven it off and on, and it was my daily driver for my 25 mile round trip to work until it died on my way home on my Friday. Its never run good, as noted the power it had was pathetic, but at least it ran (top speed of 50 uphill in 5th). Oh, did i mention it has floor issues? The driver's side floor is a piece of thin sheet metal and a license plate."

straycat said:

Way to go....you got a motor running!! On all my old stuff when I lost a fuel pump I just replaced them with an electric unit and a block off plate. I would just go that route. At least you know you are getting spark since that starting fluid worked. That old carb might need to be serviced or replaced once you start driving it around a bit. Most likely a carb sitting for long periods of time just crap out on you.....lol.

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Oh, forgot to ask, is there any advantage to the electric? Its a hair more than twice the price of the mechanical, and then there's the cost of the block off plate (and where do you get one?), so it'd really have to be a significant improvement at that price.