Occasionaly dififcult shifting with the 5 speed?

modelageek · May 8, 2014

Occasionally when I shift it is a little tough. I also notice that if I double clutch it will free the shift up so that it is smooth. This issue just started. The truck has about 110k on it. supposedly the clutch was changed at around 80k or 90k. I do not know what parts were changed. I looked in the hole and the PP did not look new? I checked the clutch MC and fluid looked fine. thoughts?

RonD · May 8, 2014

At idle, vehicle stopped, how does it shift into 1st and reverse?

This is when a clutch engage/disengage issue would first show up.

Hard shift while driving could be the stick shift bushings are loose or worn out, stick would have lots of play in it.
Read here: http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/winter2007/shifterbushings.shtml

modelageek · May 8, 2014

RonD said:
At idle, vehicle stopped, how does it shift into 1st and reverse?

This is when a clutch engage/disengage issue would first show up.

Hard shift while driving could be the stick shift bushings are loose or worn out, stick would have lots of play in it.
Read here: http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/winter2007/shifterbushings.shtml

It's a little tricky shifting into 1st at idle. I looked in the hole. I don't see any grease or fluid. The slave looks pretty clean it is blue but does not have the boot over it. You can see the spring. The shifter does not seem too loose.

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RonD · May 8, 2014

What about reverse?

No synchro on that, does it grind?

There are a couple of things that go out on the clutch system.
What a clutch does, is to disengage the transmission's Input Shaft from the Flywheel of the engine.
This allows the driver to match the Input Shaft speed to the Transmissions Output Shaft speed(driveline)
When you are stopped the Output Shaft speed is 0rpms
The Input Shaft speed, at idle, will be at least 650rpms

So to get transmission into 1st gear(or reverse) the input shaft speed must drop to 0rpms.

Input shaft is supported by the transmission at one end and the Pilot Bearing on the Flywheel at the other end.
If pilot bearing starts to wear it will not allow Input shaft to go to 0rpms easily, it transfers some of the torque of the 650rpms of the flywheel to the Input shaft, so even though the clutch is disengaging as it should the Input shaft is still getting some torque from the Pilot Bearing, making it hard to shift in to 1st or reverse, the synchromesh which is there to speed up or slow down the input shaft gear to match the output shaft gear, needs to be forced more than usual.

Some people don't change the Pilot Bearing when they do the clutch, or damage it when installing transmission to block.

The slave and master cylinder are the only other parts that can prevent the Input shaft from coming to a stop, 0rpms, with clutch pedal in.
This is simple hydraulics, so if you have a leak it won't work, if you have air in the lines it won't work, if check valve in Master is bad it won't work.

You can check the master by pumping the clutch pedal several times, engine off, then open the bleeder at the slave cylinder, if you get a squirt of fluid then check valve in Master is bad, if you just get a drip then master is OK.

Throw out bearing will make a noise when it is starting to fail but generally it wouldn't effect shifting.

Never ran across a Pressure plate that caused a clutch to not disengage, not sure it could happen??

modelageek · May 9, 2014

RonD said:
What about reverse?

No synchro on that, does it grind?

There are a couple of things that go out on the clutch system.
What a clutch does, is to disengage the transmission's Input Shaft from the Flywheel of the engine.
This allows the driver to match the Input Shaft speed to the Transmissions Output Shaft speed(driveline)
When you are stopped the Output Shaft speed is 0rpms
The Input Shaft speed, at idle, will be at least 650rpms

So to get transmission into 1st gear(or reverse) the input shaft speed must drop to 0rpms.

Input shaft is supported by the transmission at one end and the Pilot Bearing on the Flywheel at the other end.
If pilot bearing starts to wear it will not allow Input shaft to go to 0rpms easily, it transfers some of the torque of the 650rpms of the flywheel to the Input shaft, so even though the clutch is disengaging as it should the Input shaft is still getting some torque from the Pilot Bearing, making it hard to shift in to 1st or reverse, the synchromesh which is there to speed up or slow down the input shaft gear to match the output shaft gear, needs to be forced more than usual.

Some people don't change the Pilot Bearing when they do the clutch, or damage it when installing transmission to block.

The slave and master cylinder are the only other parts that can prevent the Input shaft from coming to a stop, 0rpms, with clutch pedal in.
This is simple hydraulics, so if you have a leak it won't work, if you have air in the lines it won't work, if check valve in Master is bad it won't work.

You can check the master by pumping the clutch pedal several times, engine off, then open the bleeder at the slave cylinder, if you get a squirt of fluid then check valve in Master is bad, if you just get a drip then master is OK.

Throw out bearing will make a noise when it is starting to fail but generally it wouldn't effect shifting.

Never ran across a Pressure plate that caused a clutch to not disengage, not sure it could happen??

Thanks for all the great info!

Its goes into reverse without grinding. It is reasonably smooth.

No noise from TB or PB.

I will check the MC when i get some help.

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RonD · May 9, 2014

You can check the MC by yourself, if MC's check valve is not releasing pressure then fluid will squirt out at least 5 minutes after pumping the pedal a few times.

If you have no grinding going into reverse when stopped I would think the clutch system and pilot bearing are OK.

Most likely cause of hard shifting would be an internal transmission issue.
I would change the trans fluid and see what comes out the drain hole.

modelageek · May 9, 2014

RonD said:
You can check the MC by yourself, if MC's check valve is not releasing pressure then fluid will squirt out at least 5 minutes after pumping the pedal a few times.

If you have no grinding going into reverse when stopped I would think the clutch system and pilot bearing are OK.

Most likely cause of hard shifting would be an internal transmission issue.
I would change the trans fluid and see what comes out the drain hole.

Thanks. I think i will change the tranny fluid? I have some super Tech Mer V.

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modelageek · May 9, 2014

I purchased some super tech mercon V. I just looked in the OM and it says ATF for the 5 speed!

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RonD · May 9, 2014

Yes that is correct, ATF in 5-speed, lol, go figure.

BRUTUS_T_HOG · May 9, 2014

RonD said:
What about reverse?

No synchro on that, does it grind?

There are a couple of things that go out on the clutch system.
What a clutch does, is to disengage the transmission's Input Shaft from the Flywheel of the engine.
This allows the driver to match the Input Shaft speed to the Transmissions Output Shaft speed(driveline)
When you are stopped the Output Shaft speed is 0rpms
The Input Shaft speed, at idle, will be at least 650rpms

So to get transmission into 1st gear(or reverse) the input shaft speed must drop to 0rpms.

Input shaft is supported by the transmission at one end and the Pilot Bearing on the Flywheel at the other end.
If pilot bearing starts to wear it will not allow Input shaft to go to 0rpms easily, it transfers some of the torque of the 650rpms of the flywheel to the Input shaft, so even though the clutch is disengaging as it should the Input shaft is still getting some torque from the Pilot Bearing, making it hard to shift in to 1st or reverse, the synchromesh which is there to speed up or slow down the input shaft gear to match the output shaft gear, needs to be forced more than usual.

Some people don't change the Pilot Bearing when they do the clutch, or damage it when installing transmission to block.

The slave and master cylinder are the only other parts that can prevent the Input shaft from coming to a stop, 0rpms, with clutch pedal in.
This is simple hydraulics, so if you have a leak it won't work, if you have air in the lines it won't work, if check valve in Master is bad it won't work.

You can check the master by pumping the clutch pedal several times, engine off, then open the bleeder at the slave cylinder, if you get a squirt of fluid then check valve in Master is bad, if you just get a drip then master is OK.

Throw out bearing will make a noise when it is starting to fail but generally it wouldn't effect shifting.

Never ran across a Pressure plate that caused a clutch to not disengage, not sure it could happen??

For your future information reverse is synchronized on an M5OD.

The last time my clutch failed(wouldn't release) it was caused by the pressure plate. When I took it off the fingers were all oblong, the diaphragm spring had failed.

The specification for slave cylinder movement is 8mm measured through the sight plug. If there is at least 8mm slave cylinder travel the problem is located in the pressure plate or pilot bearing. Either way the transmission has to be removed.

So OP if you had a lack of slave cylinder movement you need to try to bleed the hydraulic system.

RonD · May 9, 2014

Yes, M50D does have synchro on reverse but my '94 still grinds when clutch isn't fully disengaging, or if I try to engage reverse while still rolling forward.

Good info on the pressure plate, never ran across that one

BRUTUS_T_HOG · May 9, 2014

Mine used to grind until I rebuilt it, the reverse synchro was totally ground up. Yeah haven't seen too many pressure plates fail like that, it was made in China............

modelageek · May 10, 2014

I threw 3 quarts of Mercon V in it. Not much of a change so far. There was ATF in it. A little dirty with some shavings on the magnet. I might just have to live with it. It's not too bad!

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Occasionaly dififcult shifting with the 5 speed?

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