Severe Overheat, Is Engine Shot?

ab_slack · Jul 29, 2015

Fortunately this isn't my BII. Isn't even an RBV but some general tips would be helpful to find if this is worth fixing now..

My daughters 97 Nissan Altima with 2.4L "died" while she was coming home from work last week. She claimed the engine wasn't running right and started smoking. Black smoke.

To cut to the chase, I found the radiator has developed a 5 inch long crack along the top, no coolant visible is reservoir, none visible in the top of the radiator when I looked in.

So my question is, before I go about replacing the radiator, are there any worthwhile/prudent checks I should do before making that investment?

Before discovering the radiator problem I had tried starting the car to see if it would start since it wasn't running for her at the time. It started and idled just fine.

By the crack there were some thin melted plastic (radiator is plastic) as if the radiator saw some extreme heat. I am actually wondering if radiator failure may have been secondary event. Could head gasket have gone and hot gasses combined with low coolant damaged the radiator?

Could her pushing the car till it wouldn't have run damaged more?

This car is high miles, engine has lots of blow by, body beat up, been in a couple accidents, this is at end of life, but if a new radiator in it gets another 6 months, heck even three, I am good with that since they are fairly cheap.

What I don't want to do is put a radiator in and find that it can't get back on the road due to some other serious issue.

bobbywalter · Jul 29, 2015

compression and oil condition check.

Mark_88 · Jul 29, 2015

^^ agreed...

You're sort of at a cross roads with that vehicle where you are going to need to spend at least some cash to get it to the point where you can make another decision about replacing the engine/cooling system.

I would get a junkyard rad if possible that is pressure tested and go about replacing the cooling system. This would be minimum investment aside from a compression test and checking the oil for coolant.

If the compression test is good and the coolant is not present in oil then you may be OK...some engines can survive an overheat...most can't.

So, once you confirm that you could go about filling and testing the cooling system...and do the glove test if you know about that one...it will tell you for sure if there is a leaky head gasket or other problem...if that test passes...you might be in the clear for the cost of a new rad and some coolant...

If any of the tests fail...it's decision time.

Andy D · Jul 29, 2015

Gorilla tape the crack and fill the system with water. Keep the cap loose so as not to build up pressure Bring more water with you and take it for a 10 mile drive. The fact the engine is worn may have worked in your favor.

adsm08 · Jul 29, 2015

Generally the damage done by and overheat is either a warped/cracked head, or it kills the rings, because the rings are sprung steel and the extreme heat un-springs them and they won't seal. That didn't happen, because it wouldn't have started if it had. I would do a wet compression test, even fill it up and take it for a short drive.

ab_slack · Jul 29, 2015

Thanks for the suggestions.

I put water in it, it didn't take much, but I didn't mess with getting all the air out of the system cause that wasn't going to happen with the crack there. Upper hose still had air.

After starting it I drove it about a mile, seemed to be fine even under load. Ran as well as ever. So basic engine mechanics don't see any worse than it has been.

Some air/steam was misting out at low pressure by the time I completed the loop. Water level was down but only took another quart to be back up. I don't think that went out the crack but rather filled in areas I didn't get air out.

I can't see anything in the oil at the dip stick or in the valve cover opening.

Going to try the compression test. Easy to get at plugs on this. Although, since this has such severe blow by to begin with I don't think the rings are in particularly good condition to begin with.

I guess a wet compression test will tell me if issue is rings verses something else.

enjr44 · Jul 29, 2015

You are not really interested in what the compression is; but, that they are more or less the same. You are looking for a cylinder that is pumping air into the cooling system.

Before doing a compression test I would do a glove test because it will tell you the same thing. Tape up the crack before you do the test. If it doesn't bounce, I think I would replace the radiator and let her rip. You have already proved it runs OK.

ab_slack · Jul 29, 2015

Okay, dry/wet compression test done. Also tried "glove test"

Dry results

1 = 155*
2 = 135
3 = 135
4 = 135

*Note Cylinder 1 is the one next to the oil fill, the spark plug well had oil in it when I removed the plug so unknown quantity of oil got into the cylinder so I was not surprise this read radically different

Wet results
1 = 180
2 = 165
3 = 160
4 = 135** Maybe 165?

** I started with cylinder 4 and this may be my error. For the other three cylinders, after putting the oil in, I cranked the engine with the cylinder open a few sec to help the oil disperse around the rings. I had not done this with cylinder 4.

Realizing I had intended to do with cylinder 4 I re-tested (without removing gauge) and got 140psi then 145psi. At this point I had no idea what to expect and moved on to the other three.

After completing the other three I went back to cylinder 4, put some more oil in, cranked it a few seconds like the others with the cylinder open, put the pressure gauge on and got 165.

So not sure what to make of the results. There doesn't seem to be one radically low. Cylinder 1 may be significantly higher though that may be because it had extra oil to begin with.

I am not exactly sure about the "glove test". I believe that was putting rubber glove over the radiator cap. I tried that twice. Once after the engine was somewhat warm. In that case the glove slowly filled. I thought however since engine warm there may have been reason for that. I re-did the test with engine after it had been sitting. With both engine cranking and engine running the glove sat completely flat.

Now I did this last test after doing the compression tests. If there were a leak between the cylinder head and coolant could the oil have sealed that or would it have pushed thru?

enjr44 · Jul 29, 2015

Well, the compression tests seem to indicate a tired engine; but, maybe not a bad engine. Or maybe just a test gone bad (there are so many variables that five people can do one and get different results). If it passes the glove test I (me, just me) would proceed as if the head gaskets are OK. But, it is your money.

The glove test is usually done with the engine off (spark disabled) and spark plugs installed. If done with the engine running I would expect it to slowly expand as the coolant heats and expands. Just like starting a cold engine with a completely full radiator and watching the fluid level. After about three minutes it will start to overflow. It is the bounce or lack of bounce that you are looking for (compressed air getting into the cooling system equals bounce).

ab_slack · Jul 29, 2015

I can get a new rad for $95 or a junk yard for $65. not sure if new is OEM fit, it was just listed for the vehicle.

The engine is tired. 260K miles and my daughter has not been good about checking the oil. I consider it on barrowed time. Inspection runs out in January and I do not expect it to get thru emissions without significant work. I am was just hoping it got to that point or at least until she gets a job offer.

$150 might be worth it to keep it hanging in there for now. As it see it, it comes down to cost per mile. The car probably isn't worth more than salvage value so if I used the "the repair is more than the car is worth test" it would be off the road. Then again every car I have will fall into that category.

snoranger · Jul 30, 2015

ab_slack said:
I can get a new rad for $95 or a junk yard for $65. not sure if new is OEM fit, it was just listed for the vehicle.

The engine is tired. 260K miles and my daughter has not been good about checking the oil. I consider it on barrowed time. Inspection runs out in January and I do not expect it to get thru emissions without significant work. I am was just hoping it got to that point or at least until she gets a job offer.

$150 might be worth it to keep it hanging in there for now. As it see it, it comes down to cost per mile. The car probably isn't worth more than salvage value so if I used the "the repair is more than the car is worth test" it would be off the road. Then again every car I have will fall into that category.

It runs ok. It's got somewhat low compression, but probably about right for a 260K motor. A new rad is only $100 plus coolant. I'd take the chance and fix it.

ab_slack · Aug 1, 2015

Put the new rad in last night, drove the car around today and seems to be doing fine.

The AC ain't working so great, was thinking of putting in a charge and it looks like an R12 system. I thought everything was switched over to R134 by 97. The engine seems to be a 96 engine as certain parts from 97 don't fit but the 96 does. Early in the 97 model year, still I thought even 96 was R134. Hmmm

Mark_88 · Aug 1, 2015

Summer is only another 6 weeks or so...if she can handle the heat for that long hopefully something else will come along...I've only ever worried about winter and having heat...summer is 4/60 (I have side vent windows) so not a problem without AC...

I hope it holds up for her either way...but I would keep a real close eye on that rad and fluid...it probably won't take another overheat...maybe remove the hood so you can watch it better...

snoranger · Aug 1, 2015

93 was the last year of r12.

ab_slack · Aug 1, 2015

That is what I thought snoranger.

Yep gonna watch that mark.

My daughter is seriously looking at a new car or getting my Nephew's car depending on her job situation.

My youngest has her permit and she will be getting her license in 3 months so this car may very well be her "starter" car. Both her older sisters managed to put some dents in their cars petty quick after getting license. In fact this Nissan with the failed radiator was totaled out once due to a fairly minor rear end bang that would have cost $2300 to repair, I opted to keep the vehicle and take the reduced payout and had shop pull out enough dent $200 worth to get trunk lid to close.

This vehicle owes me nothing but this new radiator, coolant, and exhaust pipe I put in a couple weeks ago, so it will go to the youngest come October if it runs that long. She won't be doing anything but local driving so if she gets stuck it will be easy to handle.

Severe Overheat, Is Engine Shot?

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