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Automatic or manual for towing


rusty ol ranger

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Never said it wasnt...

Horsepower doesnt twist the wheels. Torque does. I dont know how to explain it better then that.

Horsepower is how FAST an engine can move weight......Torque is how much the engine can TWIST.

Basically if the engine cant twist then nothing gets set into motion so the engine can spin up and make HP.

It doesnt matter anyways....the only tests you want to do are ones that you know my F150 will lose, and the only ones i wanna do are ones your honda will lose.

Lets face it will...there different vehicles designed for different things. Your Honda wouldnt last 5 minutes out on the farm, my F150 sucks running down the expressway at 80+ MPH.

Out of curosity...how much HP does your 6.2L make?

later,
Dustin
 


Gotta_gofast

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Torque is motionless. When you take torque the engine produces, and then multiply that by how many times the engine makes that torque you get horsepower. An extreme example would by a steam engine. A steam tractor can produce 5,000ft-lbs of torque. But it only spins at 100rpm. So, torque times rpm divided by 5252 would yield horsepower. (5,000 x 100)/5252 equals 95hp. A modern diesel tractor of similar size would produce 500lb-ft of torque. But this tractor turns out 2000 rpm. So, (500 x 2000)/5252 equals 190hp. You see, even though the modern tractor produces only 10% of the torque the old tractor does, it makes that torque many more times. Lets put this to the rear wheels. Both these tractors must maintain the same speed in the field. Lets say 20mph. Both tractors have the same height tires for easy comparison, lets say 6 feet tall. The circumference of a 6 foot tire is about 18.85 feet. There are 5280 feet in a mile, and 18.85 feet around the tire. 5280/18.85=280. This means that the axle must rotate 280 times for the tractor to move one mile.

Back to our tractors. We need to figure out what gear ratio would allow us to use each engine's powerband to the max while still maintaining 20mph. First, the steam engine. This guy spins at a max of 6000 revolutions per hour (100rpm x 60min) while producing a huge 5,000ft-lbs. And to maintain 20mph the axle must rotate 5600 revolutions per hour. So, 6000 engine rph/5600 axle rph = 1.07:1 gear ratio. If we multiply that huge 5,000ft-lbs by 1.07:1 we get 5350lb-ft at the axle.

Now, how much torque is the diesel putting to the axle? Well, spinning the diesel at 2000rpm for one hour would be equivalant to 120,000 revolutions per hour. The tires are the same size for comparison, so we know that the axle must turn 5600 times to travel 20 miles in one hour. So, 120,000/5600=21.43:1 gears. Now, lets take that 500lb-ft and multiply it by our gear reduction (21.43:1) to get 10,715lb-ft at the axle.

Do you see how torque doesn't mean much? It takes torque and rpm (which is HORSEPOWER) to do work. As you can see, the tremendous torque of the steam engine could only produce a maximum of 5350lb-ft at 20 mph. The diesel engine, which produced only 10% of the torque the steam engine puts out manages to turn the axle with 10,715lb-ft of torque.

Now do you see how the 300 would puke and the 302 still pull? Its not torque that pulls the load, its horsepower.
 

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the numbers game works both ways. you can take a 5ft-lb engine and spin it to a million RPM and it'll make almost 1,000 HP...but it wouldnt tow a soggy ham sandwich.

this isnt as cut and dry as you guys are trying to make it. the reality is: a good tow rig will have BOTH. torque to get the load moving and HP to keep it up to speed. as it sits, dustins 300 will move more ultimate weight (that is, adding weight untill the engine stalls. think tractor pull). wills honda will move less weight but itll move it at a higher speed.

theres a reason you dont see a 5,000 HP top-fuel dragster at the tractor pulls and a 5,000 HP tractor at the drag strip. they CANNOT be compared...which is what you guys are trying to do.
 

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the numbers game works both ways. you can take a 5ft-lb engine and spin it to a million RPM and it'll make almost 1,000 HP...but it wouldnt tow a soggy ham sandwich.

this isnt as cut and dry as you guys are trying to make it. the reality is: a good tow rig will have BOTH. torque to get the load moving and HP to keep it up to speed. as it sits, dustins 300 will move more ultimate weight (that is, adding weight untill the engine stalls. think tractor pull). wills honda will move less weight but itll move it at a higher speed.

theres a reason you dont see a 5,000 HP top-fuel dragster at the tractor pulls and a 5,000 HP tractor at the drag strip. they CANNOT be compared...which is what you guys are trying to do.

Exactly. I am sorry but when it comes to towing their is A LOT more to it that paper and numbers.

For proof i have MULTIPLE profeshional drivers AND my self as the tester. The trucks are two IDENTICAL speced Freightliner Classics with the same gearing and the same trans. The ONLY difference between the two is one has the 535 HP Detroit S60 (1650lb/tq @ 1800rpm) and the other has a 475hp Cat C15 (1850lbs Tq @ 1200rpm).

When running down the road hauling 80,000lbs the Cat is head and tales above the Detroit for a few reasons. One although its got 60hp less it does have 200lbs/tq MORE. That torque also happens MUCH sooner in the VERY narrow RPM rang of the big Diesels (AKA 500rpm-2200rpm redline).

That Cat is hands down the better of the two for getting the load down the road as ALL the drivers will tell you BUT that Detroit is the one the company prefers and is why they only have the 2 Cats. A lot of the driers also prefer the Detroit as well as it goes farther on the tank of fuel than the Cat and even though it aint got as much stump it gets the job done. Its also cheaper to buy and has much better dealer support. Then again the Cat has over 600,00kms on it now and spend very little time in the shop were as the NEWER Detroit is in the shop all the time.
 

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Back to our tractors. We need to figure out what gear ratio would allow us to use each engine's powerband to the max while still maintaining 20mph. First, the steam engine. This guy spins at a max of 6000 revolutions per hour (100rpm x 60min) while producing a huge 5,000ft-lbs. And to maintain 20mph the axle must rotate 5600 revolutions per hour. So, 6000 engine rph/5600 axle rph = 1.07:1 gear ratio. If we multiply that huge 5,000ft-lbs by 1.07:1 we get 5350lb-ft at the axle.
You have fun herding the steamer down the road with the chain steering :icon_thumby: :icon_rofl:

Exactly. I am sorry but when it comes to towing their is A LOT more to it that paper and numbers.

For proof i have MULTIPLE profeshional drivers AND my self as the tester. The trucks are two IDENTICAL speced Freightliner Classics with the same gearing and the same trans. The ONLY difference between the two is one has the 535 HP Detroit S60 (1650lb/tq @ 1800rpm) and the other has a 475hp Cat C15 (1850lbs Tq @ 1200rpm).

When running down the road hauling 80,000lbs the Cat is head and tales above the Detroit for a few reasons. One although its got 60hp less it does have 200lbs/tq MORE. That torque also happens MUCH sooner in the VERY narrow RPM rang of the big Diesels (AKA 500rpm-2200rpm redline).

That Cat is hands down the better of the two for getting the load down the road as ALL the drivers will tell you BUT that Detroit is the one the company prefers and is why they only have the 2 Cats. A lot of the driers also prefer the Detroit as well as it goes farther on the tank of fuel than the Cat and even though it aint got as much stump it gets the job done. Its also cheaper to buy and has much better dealer support. Then again the Cat has over 600,00kms on it now and spend very little time in the shop were as the NEWER Detroit is in the shop all the time.
I agree, our 65hp Case 830 will hang with a 80hp John Deere 4010, the Case has a long stroke 4 cylinder vs the Deere's I6. There is a balance between torque and hp.
 

rusty ol ranger

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The forklift i drive at work has a 4.8L I6 toyota diesel. It makes 72HP, weighs 20,000lbs, will carry another 11000 (more so if your good) and will push 4 loaded train cars....up an incline.

Tell me horsepower is everything.

later,
Dustin
 

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OK, I'll bite. What exactly is that supposed to demonstrate that hasn't already been explained in this thread?
 

Gotta_gofast

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The forklift i drive at work has a 4.8L I6 toyota diesel. It makes 72HP, weighs 20,000lbs, will carry another 11000 (more so if your good) and will push 4 loaded train cars....up an incline.

Tell me horsepower is everything.

later,
Dustin
Just a guess here, but your forklift isn't moving 20,000lbs at highway speeds is it? Horsepower is a measurement of work being performed, so yes you are moving a lot of weight... but your not moving it fast. And lifting 11,000lbs doesn't require much. I can lift 5000lbs with a car jack using one hand!
 

rusty ol ranger

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I wasnt saying it took much to lift 11,000 lbs, but when your moving 31,000lbs it takes some torque.

Granted it does only go 15MPH, but, like i said before i never disputed the fact that the enghine with less torque will go slower. But ultimatly it will move more weight.

Take a 1.6L Festiva engine, and which makes about 72HP, and drop in my forklift....you think it will do the stuff the big diesel can?

It also takes alot less HP to keep things rolling then it does torque to get things rolling.

later,
Dustin
 

Gotta_gofast

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I wasnt saying it took much to lift 11,000 lbs, but when your moving 31,000lbs it takes some torque.

Granted it does only go 15MPH, but, like i said before i never disputed the fact that the enghine with less torque will go slower. But ultimatly it will move more weight.

Take a 1.6L Festiva engine, and which makes about 72HP, and drop in my forklift....you think it will do the stuff the big diesel can?

It also takes alot less HP to keep things rolling then it does torque to get things rolling.

later,
Dustin
Actually, yes it will do the same. The diesel makes 72hp at roughly 2,000 rpm where the little festiva engine makes that at 5500+. In order for the festiva engine to work out, you would need a gear reduction off of the crankshaft so that final output matched the original 2000ish rpm. So the advantage here in a forklift is wear and tear. You do not want to be working an engine at 5500rpm when you can use an engine that turns less than half that all day. Horsepower is a measurement of work being performed. I don't think you understand this. Torque is a measurement of force exerted around an axis. Why do you think they rated your forklift (and every other piece of equipment and machinery) in terms of horsepower. This way, we can all compare different engines by how much work they perform. Torque by itself is uesless. 1,000lb-ft of torque will not do an ounce of work without a timeframe (0 rpm). But when you multiply torque x rpm (timeframe) you get horsepower (total work performed).
 

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