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Front end badly out of camber and toe-in, told I need adj sleeves? '97 Mazda B4000


cobrajocky

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I've got a 1997 Mazda B4000 SE (Ext Cab, 2WD, 4.0L V6 - same as a Ranger XLT) with 94k miles (yeah I don't drive it much, just for hauling parts). My front tires are wearing heavily on the outside edges only, I was told by the Tire / Alignment tech I needed a set of Camber/Toe-in adjustment sleeves to do the full alignment and solve the very bad camber and toe-in. I've built racing engines, but I know crap about this stuff. Why would Ford build a truck that you couldn't set Camber and Toe-in???

The Tire shop want $99 for the two sleeves .... I went on EBay and I believe I found these for $20 each + free shipping. Are these what I need (if they aren't already there, and again, why the hell did Ford include these in top-end Rangers and B-4000's??!! If these aren't right, what do I need and where to buy them?

One other bit of advice, what should a good front end alignment cost including installing these sleeves? I'm in Southern California in South Orange County (so everything is more expensive here than say Detroit.

Thanks guys. :popcorn:
 

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Denisefwd93

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They can be obtained at most any parts store. camber bushing they be called. we set mine with a level check out the tech section here it will get you close.

The pinch bolt is the problem. it's recessed 12 point head.
 

cobrajocky

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4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0L V6
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Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
15"
My credo
If it ain't broke, break it so you have to fix it.
So the one in the picture in my post is the one??

How could Ford design a truck without the ability to set camber?? I don't get that?

Anyone got an clean estimate of what a well done front-end alignment with installing these bushings is "fair" for a late 90's Ranger / B-4000?? I just want to know if I'm getting screwed or not.
 

adsm08

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Ford didn't design a truck without the ability to set camber/caster. What they did do is design a front end setup that shouldn't need those angles adjusted unless something else was damaged, worn out, or changed on purpose (lift or lower, bigger or smaller tires than stock).

It's not that it isn't adjustable, so much as the factory slug "locks" it in place so that hitting a curb or something can't change it. While very hard to do, it is technically possible to alter the camber by running into something with the adjustable slugs.

Since Ford doesn't design things to be messed with, they design things to work properly in the stock configuration, so they don't usually build in contingencies for people messing with stuff.

For example, short of lifting, lowering, or an accident tweaking something, there really should never be any reason to adjust the camber/caster. If it is ever out of whack it probably means the springs are worn and not holding things at the correct height. So in the engineer's mind the correct fix isn't to adjust the camber, it's to replace the worn springs.

Now in addition to that, they know that ball joints are ultimately a wear item, and will need replaced at some point. If you use Ford parts on that job, or really any high quality replacement, and reuse the original slug, with it's locating ear, your camber and caster should be in spec when you first put it back together, no need for an alignment (I'd still check it anyway). If you have the adjustable slugs you have to align it to get things back correct, because without a hard locator like that tab you probably won't put the slug back in the exact right spot, no matter how careful you are.


As for a "fair" price, you can't pay a fair price for anything in California. Last place I worked an alignment was about $70, plus a half hour per side for new cam slugs ($85/hr labor rate) and probably about $20 a piece for the parts themselves, so $175 plus sales tax.
 

cobrajocky

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Location
Mission Viejo, California
Vehicle Year
1997
Make / Model
Mazda B4000SE
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Engine Size
4.0L V6
Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
15"
My credo
If it ain't broke, break it so you have to fix it.
Ford didn't design a truck without the ability to set camber/caster. What they did do is design a front end setup that shouldn't need those angles adjusted unless something else was damaged, worn out, or changed on purpose (lift or lower, bigger or smaller tires than stock).

It's not that it isn't adjustable, so much as the factory slug "locks" it in place so that hitting a curb or something can't change it. While very hard to do, it is technically possible to alter the camber by running into something with the adjustable slugs.

Since Ford doesn't design things to be messed with, they design things to work properly in the stock configuration, so they don't usually build in contingencies for people messing with stuff.

For example, short of lifting, lowering, or an accident tweaking something, there really should never be any reason to adjust the camber/caster. If it is ever out of whack it probably means the springs are worn and not holding things at the correct height. So in the engineer's mind the correct fix isn't to adjust the camber, it's to replace the worn springs.

Now in addition to that, they know that ball joints are ultimately a wear item, and will need replaced at some point. If you use Ford parts on that job, or really any high quality replacement, and reuse the original slug, with it's locating ear, your camber and caster should be in spec when you first put it back together, no need for an alignment (I'd still check it anyway). If you have the adjustable slugs you have to align it to get things back correct, because without a hard locator like that tab you probably won't put the slug back in the exact right spot, no matter how careful you are.
"adsm08" - Thanks for the very detailed explanation, it's what I was looking for. My 97 Mazda B-4000SE (same as a Ranger XLT) is bone stock right down to the factory Alum Wheels, tire size 225 x 14's and original spring, though I had stock length replacement Monroe heavy duty shocks installed some 35k miles ago. No lifts or anything .... it's just a street 2WD, I just use street tread tires. The HD Monroe's are still working great (always love those Monroe's for Trucks) but I guess at 21 years old, though only 94k Miles, there could be "sagging" springs, a little.

I did wack a curb hard once at night a few years ago at an un-light intersection and I guess I may have bent something on that passenger side suspension that has the bad Camber/Toe-in.

Are those pictures of the Adjustment Sleeves I included in the original posting the "Slugs" you are talking about?
The listing (several of the same types on EBay) claims that they are for 94 - 99 B-4000's and Ranger's. I just have no way of comparing to a "slug" as you mention.


Hey, thanks for your input, the seasoned "Admins" on this site are always the best for detailed advice. God bless you guys! :icon_thumby:
 

Denisefwd93

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2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
stock, may get leveling springs in front "somday"
Tire Size
235
"adsm08" - Thanks for the very detailed explanation, it's what I was looking for. My 97 Mazda B-4000SE (same as a Ranger XLT) is bone stock right down to the factory Alum Wheels, tire size 225 x 14's and original spring, though I had stock length replacement Monroe heavy duty shocks installed some 35k miles ago. No lifts or anything .... it's just a street 2WD, I just use street tread tires. The HD Monroe's are still working great (always love those Monroe's for Trucks) but I guess at 21 years old, though only 94k Miles, there could be "sagging" springs, a little.

I did wack a curb hard once at night a few years ago at an un-light intersection and I guess I may have bent something on that passenger side suspension that has the bad Camber/Toe-in.

Are those pictures of the Adjustment Sleeves I included in the original posting the "Slugs" you are talking about?
The listing (several of the same types on EBay) claims that they are for 94 - 99 B-4000's and Ranger's. I just have no way of comparing to a "slug" as you mention.


Hey, thanks for your input, the seasoned "Admins" on this site are always the best for detailed advice. God bless you guys! :icon_thumby:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/exp-594?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-pro-comp-suspension-systems&gclid=Cj0KCQiAw9nUBRCTARIsAG11eiftlofh_28vNvzov8vpwU1QIxhXQig21OXEQICaJza8vFjiFlW5eVkaAj6sEALw_wcB/URL] [URL] https://www.amazon.com/Moog-K80109-Caster-Adjusting-Bushing/dp/B000C59ZDQ
 

adsm08

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31X10.50X15
"adsm08" - Thanks for the very detailed explanation, it's what I was looking for. My 97 Mazda B-4000SE (same as a Ranger XLT) is bone stock right down to the factory Alum Wheels, tire size 225 x 14's and original spring, though I had stock length replacement Monroe heavy duty shocks installed some 35k miles ago. No lifts or anything .... it's just a street 2WD, I just use street tread tires. The HD Monroe's are still working great (always love those Monroe's for Trucks) but I guess at 21 years old, though only 94k Miles, there could be "sagging" springs, a little.

I did wack a curb hard once at night a few years ago at an un-light intersection and I guess I may have bent something on that passenger side suspension that has the bad Camber/Toe-in.

Are those pictures of the Adjustment Sleeves I included in the original posting the "Slugs" you are talking about?
The listing (several of the same types on EBay) claims that they are for 94 - 99 B-4000's and Ranger's. I just have no way of comparing to a "slug" as you mention.


Hey, thanks for your input, the seasoned "Admins" on this site are always the best for detailed advice. God bless you guys! :icon_thumby:

Yes, the picture you posted is quite generic but generally the correct part. There is little variation to them across all of Ford's front axles that use them, except for different sizes and offsets.


I have to do ball joints on my B2 this weekend, I'll see if I can remember to snap a picture of the ones in it. I think they are the OE fixed style still.
 

Denisefwd93

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4WD
Total Lift
stock, may get leveling springs in front "somday"
Tire Size
235
Yes, the picture you posted is quite generic but generally the correct part. There is little variation to them across all of Ford's front axles that use them, except for different sizes and offsets.


I have to do ball joints on my B2 this weekend, I'll see if I can remember to snap a picture of the ones in it. I think they are the OE fixed style still.
Hard work! When we did the ball joints on my truck last year I couldn't believe how difficult even with two people and the Press! all in all though it's all pretty simple imo compared to Upper and Lower A-frames and all that other stuff in newer vehicles.

CJ, if your camber is out that much you probably need ball joints!

Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
 

adsm08

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Hard work! When we did the ball joints on my truck last year I couldn't believe how difficult even with two people and the Press! all in all though it's all pretty simple imo compared to Upper and Lower A-frames and all that other stuff in newer vehicles.
I expect it it to take me no more than 2.5 hours.

All told I'd rather be flopping upper control arms into an F-150.
 

Denisefwd93

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stock, may get leveling springs in front "somday"
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I expect it it to take me no more than 2.5 hours.

All told I'd rather be flopping upper control arms into an F-150.
I really like the ttb many many years ago I had a van that had the twin I-beam, people hated those too, but I kind of like them.

Then about 10 years ago we had to build a very large cradle with wheels for my 10000 pound sailboat and lo & behold we found out Ford twin i-beams fit inside 3 inch iron pipe perfectly or near perfectly. So it didn't take for long my friend doing the welding to make up 2, 9 foot wide axles. Rather than weld the kingpins he cut the tie rods and welded them to the structure of the Cradle.

But I do drift on these threads sorry about that CJ, good luck with your truck!

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cobrajocky

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Mazda B4000SE
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Transmission
Automatic
2WD / 4WD
2WD
Tire Size
15"
My credo
If it ain't broke, break it so you have to fix it.
Denisefwd93 - both of those links are to camber adapters for too early (Camber-Caster Kit 88 1/2-94 Ranger) than my "Mazda" Ranger XLT which is a 97. But I get the point.

The front-end tech said my Camber was off -.1 on the passenger side, the side I wacked the curb on a left turn one dark night. The Ball Joints are still very tight at only 94k Miles.

I found MAS Industries (made in Kalifornia) adapters on EBay for $26 a pair that are for Ford and Mazda "Rangers" 1995 - 2000. Not as "pretty" as the Moog's, but I'm not racing this old buggy, just hauling racing motor parts.

adsm08 - How tough is it to pull the stock "Slugs" above the ball joint as you call them, on a 97 vintage Ranger / Mazda with low mileage living all it's life in the "sunshine state" (no rust, not much rain, no snow). Do I really need a special "puller" to get the stock slug out and anything to get this eccentric one in?? Any difficulties for a motor guy with VERY limited suspension parts experience?

Thanks everybody.

These are what I ordered. MAS AK8978 (2)
 

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adsm08

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They aren't hard to do, most of the time.

You take the wheel off, take the pinch bolt out, and the get a chisel under the lip and knock that sucker out. I prefer the air chisel myself.

Alternate sides as it will usually get cocked and then stuck if you only hit one side.


Putting it back in isn't much different, you have to hold the knuckle up so you can get the stud of the ball joint started in the hole, get the slug in the beam, then run it home with the hammer. Just remember, suspension work is a lot less delicate than engine work and involves a lot more hitting things with hammers.
 

Denisefwd93

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They aren't hard to do, most of the time.

You take the wheel off, take the pinch bolt out, and the get a chisel under the lip and knock that sucker out. I prefer the air chisel myself.

Alternate sides as it will usually get cocked and then stuck if you only hit one side.


Putting it back in isn't much different, you have to hold the knuckle up so you can get the stud of the ball joint started in the hole, get the slug in the beam, then run it home with the hammer. Just remember, suspension work is a lot less delicate than engine work and involves a lot more hitting things with hammers.
Oh yes, there are a number of posts from people having trouble with the pinch bolt!
CJ, only did a reference search, figured you would do your own searching once you realize they are out there and you don't have to pay more than necessary.

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adsm08

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Oh yes, there are a number of posts from people having trouble with the pinch bolt!
Hard is a matter of opinion, and my skill level and tool sets greatly exceed probably 80% of the people registered on this site, and almost certainly all of the people who have been having pinch bolt issues lately.
 
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Denisefwd93

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Ford
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Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
stock, may get leveling springs in front "somday"
Tire Size
235
Hard is a matter of opinion, and my skill level and tool sets greatly exceed probably 80% of the people registered on this site, and almost certainly all of the people who have been having pinch bolt issues lately.
And that is why you should have a steady stream of clients and customers!! I love reading you and Ron's information Laden posts


And I still haven't decided what to do with my truck the bad transmission is still working -+ ok going on 3 years now but lately I have been thinking just get another truck.
 
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