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My first CB


4x4junkie

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1) it is only a 1/4 wave antenna
2) it radiate from the bottom, most time it is mounted low, the radiating pattern is partly blocked by the body of the vehicle.
3) to be 1/4 wave it has to have a spring on it.
4) too hard to tune for low SWR, with or without a spring.


It's only good quality is try an kill one, almost impossible.
1.
And you think something shorter is better??
FYI, all mobile CB antennas (excepting for some "no-ground-plane mount" ones) operate as 1/4 wave (I don't care what the (unregulated) marketing claims on some are).

2.
The antenna's entire length radiates (RF voltage is infact greatest at it's tip)

3.
Not sure what a spring has to do with anything, you can use it with or without one (the spring does change it's resonant freq some, but not enough to be very significant)

4.
1.1:1 match across all 40 channels on my Ranger's whip.
A hard-to-tune antenna is indicative of a poor ground (usually the mount not being attached to a sufficiently-large mass of metal, which is about the only reason for a full-length whip to not have good SWR).


Sorry to say, but any antenna that has a loading coil on it will be less efficient than one that doesn't. Not only does the coil increase resistive losses, it also lowers the antenna's radiation impedance (furthering the losses in the coil).
 


Scrambler82

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1.
And you think something shorter is better??
FYI, all mobile CB antennas (excepting for some "no-ground-plane mount" ones) operate as 1/4 wave (I don't care what the (unregulated) marketing claims on some are).

If there is ⅝ Wave length of wire, which is in most mobile antennas, then it is electrically a ⅝ wave and for info the best wave length to work off it is ½ wave because no ground plane is needed.

2.
The antenna's entire length radiates (RF voltage is infact greatest at it's tip)


Yes but it starts at the bottom, if that is blocked by metal it screws up the radiating pattern.

3.
Not sure what a spring has to do with anything, you can use it with or without one (the spring does change it's resonant freq some, but not enough to be very significant)

¼ wave length is 9 feet which is 108” not the 102' of the steel rod. The spring is 6” and makes up the difference to the ¼ length. If you tried to match it without a spring you would be way off.

4.
1.1:1 match across all 40 channels on my Ranger's whip.
A hard-to-tune antenna is indicative of a poor ground (usually the mount not being attached to a sufficiently-large mass of metal, which is about the only reason for a full-length whip to not have good SWR).

I would be very surprised if you had a 1 to 1 match across the full band. No antenna I know of has that characteristic. You should tune for lowest SWR on the channel or frequency you use the most.
A full wave length antenna would be 36 feet long, if correct in length, coax, connectors and power output of the radio then you will get a perfect match but not today, I don’t think it even exists.



Sorry to say, but any antenna that has a loading coil on it will be less efficient than one that doesn't. Not only does the coil increase resistive losses, it also lowers the antenna's radiation impedance (furthering the losses in the coil)

If it is a perfect antenna which does not exist, then you could be correct but it will depend on the mounting point. 60 feet in the air with nothing around it yes you would be correct but mounted on a vehicle no there are too many variables.



It is hard to beat a ½ wave fiberglass whip made by a good company like Wilson, their antennas have the highest “Q” value of any on the market. The “Q” Value is an efficiency rating applied to antennas.
Now the biggest problem now-a-days is most antenna companies are going to ⅝ wave ratings, why, maybe because people think the higher the wave rating the better the antenna but again it isn’t.
 

4x4junkie

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If there is ⅝ Wave length of wire, which is in most mobile antennas, then it is electrically a ⅝ wave and for info the best wave length to work off it is ½ wave because no ground plane is needed.
The length of wire inside of the coil does not correlate with the effective operating wavelength of the antenna. What matters is that the coil needs to be of a certain amount of inductance to establish resonance with a less-than-1/4λ whip (which is capacitive by nature). A coil of 'x' inductance with closely-spaced turns of wire will require less length of wire than one that has wider-spaced windings. Fact remains, the antenna as a whole operates principally as 1/4 wave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_antenna#Electrically_short_whips


Yes but it starts at the bottom, if that is blocked by metal it screws up the radiating pattern.
RF current is greatest, and voltage lowest at the bottom. As the energy travels along the whip, the current becomes less, and the voltage becomes greater. Because the voltage is greatest at the tip, any proximity of an object at the tip will affect the antenna much more than something in proximity to the antenna's base.

The antenna's entire length does radiate, however it's radiation energy is much greater at the tip than at the base.


¼ wave length is 9 feet which is 108” not the 102' of the steel rod. The spring is 6” and makes up the difference to the ¼ length. If you tried to match it without a spring you would be way off.
No, 1/4 wave at 27.185 MHz (ch 19) is ~103¼ inches.

234 ÷ 27.185(MHz) = 8.607688(feet) × 12 = 103.292 inches

An online calculator for 1/4λ antennas is here if you don't believe me...

No doubt, a spring does change it's resonant freq, however IME it only affects the SWR by maybe .3 or so (changes a 1.0:1 to 1.3:1 or vice-versa), and you can always trim the whip shorter too.


I would be very surprised if you had a 1 to 1 match across the full band. No antenna I know of has that characteristic. You should tune for lowest SWR on the channel or frequency you use the most.
A full wave length antenna would be 36 feet long, if correct in length, coax, connectors and power output of the radio then you will get a perfect match but not today, I don’t think it even exists.
I said 1.1:1 (that's: one-point-one-to-one), not 1-to-1.
It seems you do have an aversion to full-length CB antennas, so it makes sense you haven't experienced one in a proper installation yet.
Bandwidth between the 1.5:1 SWR points on a 1/4λ whip is on the order of about 1.5 MHz, which would be equivalent to having a whole additional set of 40 channels both above and below the regular 40 channels.
With your 1:1 SWR set on CH 19, a 1.1:1 on CHs 1 & 40 is very possible.

(and please note that I said "full-length" not 'full-wave'. Full-length refers to a full 1/4-wave whip as opposed to a coil-loaded (shortened) antenna. It has nothing to do with the actual length of the free-space RF signal. A full-wave vertical antenna would not radiate in a useful manner anyway (exhibits a "cloverleaf" radiating pattern, which has nulls instead of lobes in a horizontal direction, precisely where you would want the signal to go/be received from).

If it is a perfect antenna which does not exist, then you could be correct but it will depend on the mounting point. 60 feet in the air with nothing around it yes you would be correct but mounted on a vehicle no there are too many variables.
Not sure what in that is relevant here... No doubt, a "perfect" antenna does only exist on paper (or I guess maybe in bytes too). A ground-plane antenna (what a 1/4λ whip on a vehicle roof is) does not reference actual earth ground, so is not affected by it's height above it.


It is hard to beat a ½ wave fiberglass whip made by a good company like Wilson, their antennas have the highest “Q” value of any on the market. The “Q” Value is an efficiency rating applied to antennas.
Now the biggest problem now-a-days is most antenna companies are going to ⅝ wave ratings, why, maybe because people think the higher the wave rating the better the antenna but again it isn’t.
I think you're getting a bit caught up in the marketing claims of CB antennas (the same ones I mentioned that have no regulations and few guidelines to govern them).

"Q" simply describes a ratio of power stored in a set of reactive components (the antenna whip's capacitance and it's loading coil as an example) vs the amount of power lost or dissipated by their resistance (and relates to operating bandwidth of the circuit). It is not something applicable specifically to antennas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

Ideally you do not want to "store" any of your RF energy in a loading coil at all, you want the antenna to radiate as much of that energy into space as possible.

And yes, Wilson does make great antennas, however they too are among the perpetrators of some of the marketing hype.
 

Scrambler82

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The fact remains, they are not good operating antennas.

The fact remains, they are dangerous on the trail to by-standers.

We can go on and on with fact and figures, I did mind by averages instead of pulling out the antenna books so let agree to disagree and thanks for the discussion.

I feel that with todays technology the newer antennas tend to perform better then the old tech. I have done some comparing on my vehicle and found the newer Wilson fiberglass tend to bring in less noise, maybe the coiling of the wire with in the antenna but I am not sure and i have no problem getting out to the people I need to talk to and that is all that really matter.

Again thanks, ltr
 

4x4junkie

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The fact remains, they are not good operating antennas.
That would be your opinion. Tests I've done (both field-strength and in signal reports) with probably over a dozen antennas of different brands and lengths (on the same mount on same vehicle too) say otherwise.

But that's fine, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on it then.
 

baddis

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Ok here is my input. When I ran dual 102 whips on my old 3/4 ton with a cobra 29 ltd classic peaked and clipped I could reach out almost 25 miles and be heard. the down side is the springs have a flat wire in it that after a while degrades and you have to replace the spring. In my ranger I ran dual 4ft firesticks with a uniden pro 510 xl It did the job but nowhere near the reception or transmit. ( alot to do with radio) In my semi I have dual 4ft firesticks and a stock galaxy dx 959 and get out around 8 to 10 miles. I am not an expert this is just my experiences.
 

4x4junkie

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^^
Don't knock that PRO-510XL... While it may be a small no-frills radio, it does have some decent circuits in it (probably the only radio of it's size/price bracket that does, along with the 520XL). Throw a good mic on one and it'll get out quite well.

What I suspect is your dual antennas simply weren't far enough apart mounted on your Ranger. The closer to 8½ feet of separation they have, the better they work front & back (likely why the same antennas are working better on your semi). If it's not practical to mount them that far apart, it's almost always better to use a single antenna.
 

baddis

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the uniden was an "unknown" as in I have no idea how old it was and if they had set the standing wave. I will try with the new truck and not sure what radio I will put in. I really like my galaxy but might go with a cobra 29 night stalker
 

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In my ranger I ran dual 4ft firesticks with a uniden pro 510 xl It did the job but nowhere near the reception or transmit.
To run dual (co-phased) antennas you need at least a half-wave of the desired frequency you are using for separation between the two antennas. A ranger is nowhere near the distance needed for cb frequencies. Big rigs get by with dual antennas because of the distance between the mirrors. Its still not the perfect distance needed, but it does work. The main reason is the radiation pattern changes. A single antenna has a round radiation pattern. Dual antennas change the round radiation pattern to an oval pattern favoring the front and rear of the vehicle. It concentrates the signal in a way that there is less signal radiated to the sides and more signal radiated to front and rear. Your best bet is to use one antenna on a ranger and mount it as high and in the center of vehicle.

I use the pro 510 xl with a Turner RK56B noise canceling mic. Everyone assumes I have a big radio.
 
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