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Old 02-06-2018, 12:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by adsm08 View Post
Oh I'd got 302 all the way. I have a buddy who has been building small block Windsors engines for almost 30 years and won't have a 351. He throws a 500 cam in them and 1.8 rockers and says those blow the 351 out of the water for towing power and fuel economy all day long.
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I never would have thought. What makes them better over the 351? Arenít they the same platform?


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I'm not a small block guy, and I don't have dyno sheets in front of me, so all this is kind of second hand, and a bit incomplete.

I know that in general, for performance builds, the 302 is preferred over the 351, despite them being basically the same engine. Most of the old engine builders I have talked to on the subject consider the 351 a boat anchor and would rather have a 302. The one time I did do some HD towing with a 351 I thought it did very nicely right up until the thrust bearing spun. Then it did less nicely, but did get us the 150 miles home, with our load.

I know the 351 has larger combutsion chambers and bigger diamater head bolts, so the reportedly "popular" 351 heads on a 302 tends to cause more problems than it solves.

I know that my buddy who builds these trucks has a 302 with his 500 lift cam and 1.8 rocker setup in his 83, and has a 96 that he bought for the body with a stock 351. He wants his 302 back bad but it needs rebuilt because his ex drove it around for a few days ignoring the little red light by the oil pressure gauge while running it dry.


well...you have another buddy that has been building windsors for over 30 years

302 has a place. 351 has a place. money dictates certain outcomes of course.


and towing.....not a place for a 302 unless you construct it to that end.

it is a case of using stock blocks or aftermarket blocks. this only determines whether the 302 predictably loses.... clearly as a waste of time.... or loses with honor. the costs are high.

but lets talk turn key off the street stock.



stock for stock sans towing.....a 351 can often simply be sensed as a 302 that uses more gas....its fair to say that.

a typical stock truck engine unladen... if swapped into a stang or ranger or pinto....the 302 has the edge. its dimensionally smaller and lighter and easy to get more power density per dollar to a certain point.


but for this point your at...



towing


the reason the 300 6 gets the nod for towing (towing painfully fawking slow) over the 302....is why a 302 will never match a 351.

ever.

its the stroke. and that stroke is where torque comes from.


towing.... you want torque.


so it stands. you want a turn key solution of that vintage??..??

you need a f250, 351 with zf5. better off with a 460 though.

but if your a mechanic....the idi is the easy button. they are stupid....if you live where its rarely 20 degrees out, the clear winner....easiest to work on.



I can easily build a stroker 302/347(363 aftermarket block) that runs 105 to 115 percent volumetric efficiency. it will cost 6-9k and beat any stock anything while it lasts.....and tow like a motherfawker as long as the trailer your pulling.....is a trailer full of fuel.

then you move over to a stroker 351/408(427 aftermarket block)


which one will tow better?






scott....I think your psd is wounded.
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Old 02-07-2018, 02:46 AM   #12
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No doubt my 7.3L has seen better days... almost 350k on the odometer, apparently around 200k on the engine, it's due for injectors and other goodies, along with the intercooler parts I've had the parts for for over a year... it tows like a mule until it gets hot under the hood, it will keep up fine no matter what's behind it until then. On the particular mountain pass I travel you are driving up hill for 30 miles, then it gets steep... there's something about the combo that doesn't like that hill, too big of a jump between 3rd and 4th gear (2500rpm in 3rd or 1500rpm in 4th, 4.10's and 35's with a ZF5). I've had the 2500lb camper and a 1200lb trailer and made it at 50mph, but jump to towing 8000lb without the camper and it'll go 38mph like with the camper... Its getting harder to start so needs glow plugs now too... I'm gonna have to bite the near $2k bullet on parts soon...

Don't be intimidated by diesels, there isn't anything to them... the electric controlled powerstrokes and such can be intimidating, mine was down for almost 6 months due to a bad high pressure oil pump that is difficult to diagnose but the mechanical diesels like the IDI are stupid simple, it's a rotating assembly, an injection pump and 8 mechanical injectors that just do their thing. The only electrics are the starter, alternator and glow plug controller... throw a turbo on an IDI 7.3L and you'll get around 18mpg around town and probably 13mpg or thereabouts towing what you are planning, my powerstroke gets around 18mpg highway and 11ish towing the load I've been talking over the mountains... you won't see those numbers on a gasser...
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:37 PM   #13
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7.3's sell for stupid money with stupid miles on them around me. Just saw one last night with "only" 200k listed for $20k.

Dad paid $1k for a fairly straight/solid 200k '96 F-250 2wd with a 460 and a 5 speed a few years ago. The thing runs great, since it is basically a F-150 with a big block it is pretty fun to drive. Even with a whale of an engine changing spark plugs is still easy. I wish they made a new one just like it (but 4wd)

Dad didn't care about the 2wd, it is a tow pig for his gooseneck and he won't be hauling in a blizzard.

It is thirsty... but it was also cheap. No gas truck of that vintage was very fuel effiecent. I think a 5.0 F-150 was doing good to get in the mid teens.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:46 PM   #14
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Turns out I have a buddy with a f2 with a 460. He told me come talk to him with 1500 whenever Iím ready.

Definitely beats the 20k hammered 7.3ís for sale around me.


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Old 02-08-2018, 02:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by bobbywalter View Post
well...you have another buddy that has been building windsors for over 30 years

302 has a place. 351 has a place. money dictates certain outcomes of course.


and towing.....not a place for a 302 unless you construct it to that end.

it is a case of using stock blocks or aftermarket blocks. this only determines whether the 302 predictably loses.... clearly as a waste of time.... or loses with honor. the costs are high.

but lets talk turn key off the street stock.



stock for stock sans towing.....a 351 can often simply be sensed as a 302 that uses more gas....its fair to say that.

a typical stock truck engine unladen... if swapped into a stang or ranger or pinto....the 302 has the edge. its dimensionally smaller and lighter and easy to get more power density per dollar to a certain point.


but for this point your at...



towing


the reason the 300 6 gets the nod for towing (towing painfully fawking slow) over the 302....is why a 302 will never match a 351.

ever.

its the stroke. and that stroke is where torque comes from.


towing.... you want torque.


so it stands. you want a turn key solution of that vintage??..??

you need a f250, 351 with zf5. better off with a 460 though.

but if your a mechanic....the idi is the easy button. they are stupid....if you live where its rarely 20 degrees out, the clear winner....easiest to work on.



I can easily build a stroker 302/347(363 aftermarket block) that runs 105 to 115 percent volumetric efficiency. it will cost 6-9k and beat any stock anything while it lasts.....and tow like a motherfawker as long as the trailer your pulling.....is a trailer full of fuel.

then you move over to a stroker 351/408(427 aftermarket block)


which one will tow better?






scott....I think your psd is wounded.

Don't forget that the 300 has overlapping power strokes, so at least two cylinders are always on the power stroke.
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Old 02-08-2018, 05:20 PM   #16
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I have a 77 f250 with a carbed 460/auto. Just turned over 100,000 miles. I can get up to 11.5 mpg mixed driving and about 8.5 mpg towing a car hauling trailer converted with racks to haul all my ladders and equipment. I've heard the efi isn't much, if any, more efficient.
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Old 02-08-2018, 05:26 PM   #17
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Don't forget that the 300 has overlapping power strokes, so at least two cylinders are always on the power stroke.
For the way I used to pummel gas 6cyl engines with a 4cyl at tractor pulls I don't think that means a whole lot.
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Old 02-08-2018, 06:05 PM   #18
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For the way I used to pummel gas 6cyl engines with a 4cyl at tractor pulls I don't think that means a whole lot.
It doesn't. It makes them harder to stall when a manual, that's about it. I just like to bring it up because it is something a lot of people don't know about inline 6s.
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