New Alternator Problems

[PonyUp]

On my 88, going from memory....
In order from back to front, on the driver side frame rail under the driver compartment: plastic fuel reservoir and filter (looks like small oil filter) then fuel pump then metal fuel filter.

Hmmm...guessing I never went further toward the engine because all I did was change the filter. Will crawl under donor today. Thanks Jerry

Soooo...I have this thing going on in my head due to not knowing how cars actually work or supposed to workin my current situation. You can laugh<<I can take it.

Parting words to last shop to put a alternator on before taking in for tranny rebuild>>>"My battery/oil gauge needles have like a vibration movement to them. I noticed you ajusted the screw by the throttle cable after me telling you not to because car started and ran fine before any alternator was replaced. "His response was "runs, is there a problem?" I responded and let him know I would be back if there ever is and he really does not want to see me again.

Car ran for 20 minutes and dies after rebuild installation. Car cranks but will not restart.

Tranny guy finds blown EEC. #1. Can a tranny selinoid blow a ECC fuse? He changes fuse and still no start. Starts when he sprays fluid then dies. Starter and battery is strong, fuel to fuel rail, good spark.

EEC fuse is still good. The car is currently getting gas to fuel rail(40 PSI), gas is on spark plugs, tranny guy said spark was good.>>> I am thinking maybe after mobile mechanic had me try to start 50 times for fuel checks, battery may have worn down enough which led him to believe spark was not as good as it should be. Hence he diagnosing it as bad coil, distributor. New coil made no difference.

#2. Could the last shop messing with that screw to push idle up, have anything to do with a oxygen mix and the car not starting?

#3. How would a bad sparking at coil/distributor cause a car which is running fine for 20 minutes>>To just die and not start again?

Yeah, I had wine last night.

 

[RonD]

Yes, EEC Fuse powers the two 12v solenoids in the trans with Key On

It also powers EEC(computer), Fuel injectors, MAF heater, IAC Valve, fuel pump relay(not fuel pump), EVAP solenoid, EGR solenoid, and TFI/coil(spark system)

So a blown EEC Fuse would cause a no start, and engine would die instantly if that fuse blew while driving, but lots of places it could short out, it isn't transmission specific

If engine starts by adding fuel manually, "Starts when he sprays fluid then dies....", then problem is fuel is not getting into the intake, not a spark issue.

But then you have this, "The car is currently getting gas to fuel rail(40 PSI), gas is on spark plugs"
If spark plug tips are wet after cranking then adding fuel manually shouldn't matter.......but it did?

So these two things can't happen at the same time, UNLESS the gasoline is NOT gasoline, lol, maybe some "bad gas" in the tank, but it would have to be really "bad" for engine to not stay running after it started by adding fuel manually.
"Bag gas" will cause misfires and backfires but engine should staying running poorly but running.

#2 the anti-diesel screw on the throttle linkage should be set so WARMED UP engine idles at 500rpm when IAC Valve is unplugged.
It can also be used for small voltage adjustments for TPS(throttle position sensor)
TPS should show .69 to .99 volts(under 1volt) when throttle is closed all the way, anti-diesel screw sets the closed throttle plate position.
Anti-diesel screw or TPS issue wouldn't cause a No Start, unless TPS was shorted and sending Computer full 5volts with key on, this would tell computer to shut off fuel injectors, which would cause a No Start, BUT.............spark plug tips would be DRY after cranking engine.

#3 TFI modules are well known to stop working when they get too hot, coil can as well but rare, so shutting down after 20min of driving should be a TFI issue
After TFI Module cools off it will start working again, so after 10-15minutes, if that doesn't happen then NOT a TFI module issue


Anyway, first things first, either engine starts by adding fuel manually or it doesn't
Check that again, spray fuel into the intake.

If it starts and then dies then no "fuel" is getting into the intake from the fuel injectors, simple as that.
Whatever that wetness was on spark plug tips was not gasoline
Its called 50/50 Test, tells you if a No Start is because of Spark or Fuel, 50/50

 

[Denisefwd93]

This whole thing should become a journal or a book! it's unbelievable what you're going through with that old Bronco!

okay you don't know how to fix cars and trucks so you try to find people to do it looks like you're out there trying to find the absolute worse there is LOL.

Good luck with it I wish you all the best!

 

[PonyUp]

Thanks Ron.

Tranny guy has car running in park for 20 minutes when it suddenly died. My understanding is he put 5 gallons of fresh gas in tank because the gas gauge would not move when key was turned off and he thought maybe it was stuck and out of gas. Which it was not because I fill up every week. But it is strange the gauge no longer moves. I think he said used gas in the intake. It started, ran and then died out. Then he checked fuses and found the EEC fuse blown, replaced it and tried again. Heard the pump come on and though he was not the one who did the pressure test, he did remove the black cover on rail and there was gas there.

I got with brother on phone after mobile guy yesterday and he says the injectors may not be operating according to what the engines needs even though there was some gas on spark plugs. He said it might be a computer issue in not sending right info the injectors for some reason. Fuse blown and now car won't start. IAC was replaced by shop that put on last alternator and the 2 additional grounds. They would been the only ones to test the TPS when trying to find out about charge/voltage/idle issues. Don't know if they did or not.

#1. How open or closed the flap/gate is in the throttle body via that anti diesel screw,would not have any bearing on possible bad computer info sent to injectors?

I have no idea on how to use one of those meters though I did read you can short things out. Any youtube videos you recommend to learn?

I saw the plug was wet but did not smell it. Don't have a helper when I go to car today so I am guessing I can't so the gas spray test. #2. Does starting fluidwork the same? #3.. What if there is a crack in distributor that is not visible? #4. You think I should go ahead and try switching out the computer?

Here is what I am getting.
Spray gas again. If it starts and then dies again,,,,,,Pull spark plug and smell for gas. If it is gas, a alien took over and I am lost. Learn how to use a meter to test TPS Still want to know what blew that fuse.

Thank You ever so much Ron. I hope you have a general idea of how much you are appreciated. Can never convey thru cyber space how much.

Bronco people/helpers are the best.

 

[JerryC]

FWIW, when the bad connector at my fuel pump was giving me trouble it was pretty similar to what you are seeing. Start and run and drive for bit, die. Start and idle for a period of time, sometimes long periods, die. Sometimes would not start.

I think it is unlikely you have the same issue but it may indicate a bad pump.

Ah, no gas gauge... maybe bad connections to the in tank pump. Check the wiring to the pump. Somewhere on the net should be a guide for how much resistance there is for the gas gauge sending unit. There's gas in the tank now, if it is dead short or full open you'll know that's a bad sign.
It might be loose connector at the tank, the plastic gets old and the clips can break off. Or it could be crusty.

 

[PonyUp]

This whole thing should become a journal or a book! it's unbelievable what you're going through with that old Bronco!

okay you don't know how to fix cars and trucks so you try to find people to do it looks like you're out there trying to find the absolute worse there is LOL.

Good luck with it I wish you all the best!

Yeah..I hate drama with fools who think they fix something and they don't really. I realize stuff happens with older cars but to go ftom running like a champ just a month ago and the mess til now....It would appear I was using just anyone who says they know how a battery works. Unfortuntely not the case. Everyoneof the shops stay busy with everything from classics to new Mercedes. Checked them out, got recomendations and they are all polite enough people just missing something or 2 and dismissed my opinions/concerns.


Thanks for well wishes. This will be a lesson forever remebered indeed.

 

[RonD]

Yes, very first thing anyone should do when any engine cranks but doesn't start is to add fuel manually to the intake.
If it doesn't fire/start, then Spark or Compression is the issue
If it does Start and then stall, fuel delivery is the issue

Just a very quick and easy way to get on the right path to find the problem.

ECUs, PCMs, computers rarely fail, not never, but way down on the list of things that can fail.
Mechanical parts fail, they wear out, electronics not so much, although swapping out electronic parts is popular with most DIYers and sadly many professional mechanics, maybe because it is simple to do and you feel like you are actively "doing something"

But its cheaper to just check the air in the tires than to swap out electronics trying to fix an engine problem, and results will be the same, "no that wasn't the problem", lol

If you think the fuel injectors are not Pulsing you can use a Volt Meter first to check that the Red wire at any injector has 12volts when key is on, if it does then you can rent Noid Lights, they plug into a Fuel injectors 2 wire harness and will Flash if that injector is receiving a Pulse from the computer when engine is cranking.

No Pulse could be computer BUT...........could also be TFI module wiring
TFI spark system "times" spark and fuel injectors
Computer has no connection to Starter motor, so computer doesn't "know" driver wants engine to start.
Computer is connected to TFI module, when you crank the engine the distributor starts to spin, and TFI module starts to Spark the coil, this Spark Pulse to coil is passed on to the Computer, called PIP signal, Computer then starts to Pulse the fuel injectors.

If engine starts by adding fuel manually then TFI module is pulsing the Coil, you have Spark pulse, but if no fuel injector Pulse then either PIP wire is disconnected or bad or computer is

 

[PonyUp]

Thanks Ron. You are good and funny.

Took off donor computer and inertia. Attempted the distributor but the way the car was wrecked there was not a lot of room to work. To heck with that after 30 minutes of burning sweat in eyes. If I am going to do that...a totally new one with new TFI goes on.

Car is still in far away parking lot. Going over today for a hour. Will see if local O'Rielys rents out the noid. I don't know how to use a meter and I certainly don't want to accidently make anything else happens. Will switch out replaced fuse with a original from the donor. Spray carb cleaner to see what happens. Pull a spark plug and smell for myself. Change out computer if noneof that works and if all fails..Hiring mobile to come back to install distributor/module and will ask if he has a noid and if he does, check injectors first. Willalso pay moe attention to wires leaving the TFI module.

Where is PIP wire? Do I need to put any electrical greaseon puter or inertia when changedout? I know about the thermal paste for RFI

I have to work late this afternoon and 10 hour days thru next Sat. I know mobile can get it done in a lot less time than myself.

Thanks still and 4ever.

 

[Denisefwd93]

human nature always seems to steer us into looking for the most difficult and most expensive things to repair or replace when things don't do what they are supposed to do, like an old truck trying to start and run.

I have learned over the years the expensive truth of this practice that intelligent humans get caught up in.

if I say it once, I'll say it three times;. " It's gotta be something simple and obvious" and almost always is.

I just went to a very simple brake booster replacement I am now on my third brake booster the original one was bad the new replacement was bad and now the new replacement of the new replacement is good, finally.

the inertia switch is just two wires if I understand it correctly all you have to do is jump those together you don't have to replace it yet the secondary fuel pump I did not know about so your whole fuel pump system needs to be scrutinized,

You keep saying you don't know how to use a meter but you can pick one up for less than $20 as many come with instructions and you can watch a few YouTube videos on how to use one.

I've been around all kinds of electricity all my life, but when it comes to Automotive electricity I Look to Ron here on the site.

 

[RonD]

Distributors rarely fail, and shouldn't cause a no start.
TFI module on the other hand...........well they are a known issue as they age

PIP wire is part of the 6 wire TFI plug in to the module, just look at the wires on the connector, make sure they are not frayed

You can open up the Computer, warranty period is over, lol, and have a look at the circuit board, should look like this: http://www.auto-diagnostics.info/ford_eec_iv

Clean and dry, no blackish areas showing burnt circuits
There are 3 Blue Capacitors, these were known to leak after 20+ years, and that can cause odd issues, less than $5 to replace them if you can desolder and solder.
But if you can't an electronics guy wouldn't charge too much to replace these and clean up the circuit board from leak damage.

BEFORE replacing any electrical part, anything with wiring, unplug it and look at the contacts on both sides, it is VERY COMMON for electrical connections to build up a type of corrosion in vehicles because of the constant change in temperature, engine bay especially, heat up/cool down sometimes 3 or 4 times a day.
Simply unplugging a connector and plugging it back in Cleans the contacts, and this is often WHY a new sensor or electric part "fixes the problem", old sensor or part was fine, just needed better/cleaner connection.

Listen for the Fuel Pump to run for 2 second with Key on, turn key on and off as much as you like it can't hurt anything, to either confirm you here it running or that you don't hear it.
If you hear it inertia switch is OK
If you don't hear it then inertia switch could be the problem, but as Denisefwd93 said, you can just jump or bypass this switch to see if its the problem.

And just FYI, inertia switch is there to shut off fuel pump in the event of a sudden stop, an accident.
So pulling the inertia switch out of a wrecked vehicle...................well its probably been tripped so wouldn't pass 12volts to fuel pump.
You can reset it but still.........not real reliable

 

[Denisefwd93]

I just did some casual searching on non starting 2.9s there are hundreds of discussions on all kinds of forums about 2. 9.

Two things mentioned quite often is bad inertia switch even though the red button is showing through the opening it could still be bad.

You could have a good fuel pump relay and a bad wire connection where the relay or relays plug in.

also mentioned was a camshaft sensor and throttle position sensor which may or may not be on your engine,

I'm not going to get asked all kinds of questions, but I will ask, are you sure actually sure you have fuel pressure? not just fuel that you can smell.

Sorry Ron, you posted just as I posted this

it's pretty difficult to get in trouble with a multimeter they even have a built-in fuse so it's not like you would cause any damage with it there are number of videos on how to use one.
https://youtu.be/RtNMhCzq72M

 

[PonyUp]

I just did some casual searching on non starting 2.9s there are hundreds of discussions on all kinds of forums about 2. 9.

Two things mentioned quite often is bad inertia switch even though the red button is showing through the opening it could still be bad.

You could have a good fuel pump relay and a bad wire connection where the relay or relays plug in.

also mentioned was a camshaft sensor and throttle position sensor which may or may not be on your engine,

I'm not going to get asked all kinds of questions, but I will ask, are you sure actually sure you have fuel pressure? not just fuel that you can smell.

Sorry Ron, you posted just as I posted this

it's pretty difficult to get in trouble with a multimeter they even have a built-in fuse so it's not like you would cause any damage with it there are number of videos on how to use one.
https://youtu.be/RtNMhCzq72M

The inertia switch was bypassed to begin with. Been there done that with another BRII.

Relay must be working because pump is coming on and delivering to the fuel rail. Not just a smell. Pressure gauge put on fuel rail measured 40 PSI.


My future includes watching a video about multimeters, Thanks for the link.

 

[PonyUp]

Distributors rarely fail, and shouldn't cause a no start.
TFI module on the other hand...........well they are a known issue as they age

PIP wire is part of the 6 wire TFI plug in to the module, just look at the wires on the connector, make sure they are not frayed

You can open up the Computer, warranty period is over, lol, and have a look at the circuit board, should look like this: http://www.auto-diagnostics.info/ford_eec_iv

Clean and dry, no blackish areas showing burnt circuits
There are 3 Blue Capacitors, these were known to leak after 20+ years, and that can cause odd issues, less than $5 to replace them if you can desolder and solder.
But if you can't an electronics guy wouldn't charge too much to replace these and clean up the circuit board from leak damage.

BEFORE replacing any electrical part, anything with wiring, unplug it and look at the contacts on both sides, it is VERY COMMON for electrical connections to build up a type of corrosion in vehicles because of the constant change in temperature, engine bay especially, heat up/cool down sometimes 3 or 4 times a day.
Simply unplugging a connector and plugging it back in Cleans the contacts, and this is often WHY a new sensor or electric part "fixes the problem", old sensor or part was fine, just needed better/cleaner connection.

Listen for the Fuel Pump to run for 2 second with Key on, turn key on and off as much as you like it can't hurt anything, to either confirm you here it running or that you don't hear it.
If you hear it inertia switch is OK
If you don't hear it then inertia switch could be the problem, but as Denisefwd93 said, you can just jump or bypass this switch to see if its the problem.

And just FYI, inertia switch is there to shut off fuel pump in the event of a sudden stop, an accident.
So pulling the inertia switch out of a wrecked vehicle...................well its probably been tripped so wouldn't pass 12volts to fuel pump.
You can reset it but still.........not real reliable

Thanks Ron.

So maybe just replace the rotor, cap and TFI module, not the entire unit? Wires all look good at that connection. Actually this car has decent looking wire and connectors. It is protected everywhere with the split plastic tubing and rubber hose where it is up against something. I am very cautious with the wiring, lines and connectors along with reminding other to do the same.

Thanks for the point about checking those connections when they are separated. Everything has looked clean thus far. Should I put a light dab of the electric "grease" on them?

You are funny. The computer and finding a electric guy may take some time. RememberI have had 4 alternators in a month. And now a car that won't even start. But I will find someone if needed.

Inertia switch was bypassed imediately. The pump is coming on. I hear the click and hummmmm. I followed the wires back to the In Tank Pump and they are all good as is the connector. Nothing feels frayed or chalky and is solid.

Great point about not switching out the inertia switch from wrecked donor.

Today>>I put starter fluid in the intake and still no start.
I switched the replaced fuse with a good original from Donor. Still no start.
I switched out computer from the Donor. Still no start even with the fluid.
I tried starting in nuetral. I tried starting with gas pedal all the way down. Still no start.
I once again traced as many wires as I could, with bare fingers as well as all vacuum lines. They only thing I found were 2 very small places(the width of a pencil mark and less than 1/4 in. long), on the cable going into the fuse box under the hood. But they have been there awhile. Not new appearance and they areon the topside with nothing touching them. Of course I possibly may have missed something as it was raining off and on and I had a huge umbrella working. Nothing got wet except me.

Will meet with mobile guy after I pick the noid tomorrow at lunch. Will check injector wirer first, then harness if needed. Will plan on the rotor, cap and module if injectors come back with fire and signal..

Ron, I am wondering about tranny guy saying it started briefly with fluid right after it died. I couldn't get it started today and battery is still strong. You think maybe there was just enough gas in the engine from it just dying, to help him start it with starter fluid? Also>Could the liquid I observed on sparkplugs, been from spraying too much fluid into the intake?

Still puzzeled about the computer fuse blowing. Amongest pretty much everything else. But I am most appreciative to have all of you help preserve my sanity, give a few smiles and of course guide me toward furthe education. Thanks

 

[Denisefwd93]

If the transmission solenoid wires were shorted out could they blow the fuse? Asking that because, would a transmission shop just rip, instead of unplug and or disconnect? Or even realize until too late that, " oh yes you need to unplug some wires & tubes off the transmission." do shops with great reputations and millions of years of experience do this? what do you think? Lol

For 30 years I messed around the Pontiac 2.8s a friend showed me how to change out a distributor. It takes about 20 minutes once you know how.

On those, a module was underneath the rotor.

just thought I'd mention also. Rarely can a wire be determined good or bad by looking at it, you can have a broken wire/connection and it doesn't show.

You also want to be absolutely sure of the firing order, I've had many people absent-mindedly mess up the FO

The fuse has allot on it, omg. Found this it's likely similar to most Ford trucks
"Here is a path for the 30 amp EEC fuse, it is split into 2 parts for troubleshootong purposes.
1. Fuse is wired directly to EEC pin 1 and EEC power relay normally open contact.
2. From other side of EEC relay contact, it feeds the following (not necessarily in this order):
EEC unit pins 37 & 57
Wide Open Throttle relay winding
All fuel injectors
Idle air bypass valve
EDIS module pin 8
Fuel*pump*relay*winding
Mass*air*flow*sensor
Canister purge soleniod
Automatic*transmission*shift*solenoids*(if automatic trans equipped)"


After an experience on my own truck, I would seriously be looking for pinched wires whenever a transmission is removed from an engine. Shop I go to was telling me he's seen it many times over the years even though, it seems like it only happened to me lol

 

[PonyUp]

Tranny guy is good enough as a human to not dimiss/questions. He is meticulous and is the shop most all other shops send tranny work to. Since he works on high end classics, I am confident he did not just rip and run. I politely grilled him on the possibility of something being wrong due to him doing the rebuild. He said he spent 2 1/2 hours re-checking, trying to figure out why died. But as he said,though he knows some things, his forte is transmissions/differntuals(sp) I checked for "pinched" wire/loose connections. Will be back to talk to him in person again today. If there had not been the electrical issues prior to his rebuild, my actions would be taking a different direction. I would be camping out in his shop.

I realize wires can be bad and not visually seen. Hence meters are used. Got it.

Will see what happens today. I still have questions for a couple of people who took money and want money.