Has anyone tried the four barrel intake for the 3.0

[rusty ol ranger]

nice meeting you mike, now back to the carb vs EFI debate. I prefer carbs over EFI when it comes to small engines and like everyone else said that is due to the simplicity of it. Obviously, EFI is better (for most people) or else every new car would be carbed. New vehicles are made to be reliable to anyone in any climate where as a carb would need tuned to that specific region/climate. It wouldn't make sense to build something that needs tuned for where ever it is being sold. Unfortunately Rusty, technology goes forward, not backward, and no one is making money by making cars less smart. If anything here in 20-30 years we are going to have this same debate but it will be over EFI vs electric cars.

EFI was implemented for emissions. Thats it. And to capatalize on the "electronic everything" mood of the middle 80s. Oh, and make it harder for backyard mechanics and small shops to make repairs. Remember how every gas station had an auto repair shop?

But yes, tech moves on. Doesnt mean i cant hold out and sing the prasies of the old way as long as i possibly can....

And if 20 years from now its EFI vs electric, ill still be argueing for Carbs and vaccuum shifted trannys.

 

[8thTon]

The progenitor of modern EFI was created by Bosch and used on the humble VW bug. At that time it had an analog/discrete electronic brain, which had become cheap enough to mass produce. Emissions and economy requirements led to the rapid development of microcontrollers - most of the early ones were driven by automotive engine control systems. Now you have common street engines that out perform the most exotic race engines of previous decades.

You may not care about emissions or fuel economy - I do. But don't worry about electric cars, they've been around as long as gasoline vehicles, and in fact early on they were relatively even nicer than internal combustion cars. But you still can't make an automotive transportation system based on EVs that will work because even with a perfect battery it still takes either a huge instantaneous power flow or a lot of time. to store energy in the battery. With fossil fuel the energy is already stored in the fuel, you just have to move it.

 

[RonD]

EFI is more efficient than carburetor , and Direct Injection is more efficient than carb or EFI
They FIRST made Feedback carbs to get better efficiency, then they went to EFI to improve on that, now Direct Injection is the "new thing"

More efficient engine will have better power, lower emissions and better MPG

"They" lowered compression in the 70's/80's for emission reasons, which lowered power, but that wasn't related to using carbs or EFI

Changes like these have nothing to do with "backyard/DYI" mechanics, same as they have nothing to do with professional mechanics

The majority of Cars buyers want "new stuff", so car makers have to add "new stuff" every year
ABS, 4 wheel ABS, traction control, AWD, ect....................along with engine and transmission changes

As a DIYer, or Pro mechanic, you either learn the "new stuff" or you can't fix the "new stuff"

You learned to fix carbs and distributors, same thing, same learning
The reason you know about carbs and distributors is from shear repetition, you ALWAYS have to work on them, so you learn
Problem with EFI and distributorless is that they don't break that often, so learning is harder and you forget alot of what you learn for the next time, lol

Some one mentioned EFI engine computers are "not all that" and they are not, WE call them computers and think of them like a home computer or laptop, they are not that kind of computer.
They are the original kind of "computer" where the name came from, a large number calculator, it computes +,-,x, / large numbers quickly
For Air/fuel mix on the fly
"They" have added spark timing and other functions, which are very simple to calculate, but its main function is the air/fuel calculation
So not a computer, its a "computer"/calculator, doesn't need much RAM, memory or speed, just a calculator

 

[adsm08]

Some one mentioned EFI engine computers are "not all that" and they are not, WE call them computers and think of them like a home computer or laptop, they are not that kind of computer.
They are the original kind of "computer" where the name came from, a large number calculator, it computes +,-,x, / large numbers quickly
For Air/fuel mix on the fly
"They" have added spark timing and other functions, which are very simple to calculate, but its main function is the air/fuel calculation
So not a computer, its a "computer" a calculator, doesn't need much RAM, memory or speed, just a calculator

"Programmed Logic Controller" I think is the proper technical term.

 

[Dirtman]

The "non computers" we have at work on our CNC equipment (oddly enough cnc means computer numeric control) are referred to as electronic numeric control units by the fancy pants people who fix them. Or they might just be screwing with us since everyone hates those guys.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

EFI is more efficient than carburetor , and Direct Injection is more efficient than carb or EFI
They FIRST made Feedback carbs to get better efficiency, then they went to EFI to improve on that, now Direct Injection is the "new thing"

More efficient engine will have better power, lower emissions and better MPG

"They" lowered compression in the 70's/80's for emission reasons, which lowered power, but that wasn't related to using carbs or EFI

Changes like these have nothing to do with "backyard/DYI" mechanics, same as they have nothing to do with professional mechanics

The majority of Cars buyers want "new stuff", so car makers have to add "new stuff" every year
ABS, 4 wheel ABS, traction control, AWD, ect....................along with engine and transmission changes

As a DIYer, or Pro mechanic, you either learn the "new stuff" or you can't fix the "new stuff"

You learned to fix carbs and distributors, same thing, same learning
The reason you know about carbs and distributors is from shear repetition, you ALWAYS have to work on them, so you learn
Problem with EFI and distributorless is that they don't break that often, so learning is harder and you forget alot of what you learn for the next time, lol

Some one mentioned EFI engine computers are "not all that" and they are not, WE call them computers and think of them like a home computer or laptop, they are not that kind of computer.
They are the original kind of "computer" where the name came from, a large number calculator, it computes +,-,x, / large numbers quickly
For Air/fuel mix on the fly
"They" have added spark timing and other functions, which are very simple to calculate, but its main function is the air/fuel calculation
So not a computer, its a "computer"/calculator, doesn't need much RAM, memory or speed, just a calculator

Im telling you...

I have had waaay more problems from EFI shit then i ever have/had with carbs. Just my findings. Yours may differ.

My biggest issue with EFI as far as working on it is i cant "see" whats going on. Theres way to much complicated diagnostic that has to happen.

New isnt always better, just shinier.

 

[8thTon]

Technically they are embedded microcontrollers running fixed code to perform a specific task. They're not general purpose computers running user application code.

 

[91stranger]

I'd like to know what year make and model those few EFI's Rusty has worked on. Sounds like you were working on someone else's nightmare and didn't have a scanner. When my truck has an issue I can normally figure out pretty quickly due to 1 or 2 factors...… 1-it's a daily driver so if something breaks then it should be obvious as it wasn't like that the day before or 2-plug in the obd2 scanner and it will tell you what it is. It's like what Rond said, you prefer carbs because you know them and that is due to the fact that you are always working on them. Since you are always working on them you either have to learn how to fix it or you pay someone else to fix it. Same for new cars. Either learn it or pay someone else. Unless it is something like a Mercedes that requires special computers and tools that only Mercedes dealers have then most vehicles can be fixed by us shade tree mechanics. I'm the type of man that prefers a challenge in life. If you tell me it's "hard" to do then I'm all about it. I absolutely hate myself when I say "I can't do that". If Joe Blow from down the street can fix it then I sure as hell can too. It's all about how you embrace the situation. If you see a newer car with engine issues do you immediately say "I can't work on it because I don't like this technology" or do you grab it by the horns and go for it?

 

[Dirtman]

My biggest issue with EFI as far as working on it is i cant "see" whats going on. Theres way to much complicated diagnostic that has to happen.

Ron made a good point earlier, you need different tools. Yes with a screwdriver, vacuum gauage and some other stuff you can diagnose and tune a carb. Or with a good ear and instict just "know" whats going on. With EFI you have no idea whats happening without different tools. Most importantly a proper scan tool. With a good scanner you have massive amounts of live data on an efi system which makes diagnostics simple. Sometimes without even doing any more than pressing a button. I know your set in your ways but I would bet if you were given a good scanner and some free classes (That i know you wouldn't want... maybe if we chained you down lol) and learned efi better you would have different opinions.

But i understand where your coming from. At work I prefer to use my old manual operated bridgeport way more than dealing with the CNC stuff. Why? Because I can operate, repair, and understand that 100 year old machine alot better than trying to get the dumb robot computer controled nonsense to work for me. But i still accept the fact that a trained CNC operator can make everything faster than me.

 

[Nez'sRanger]

Seems like some good arguments on both sides here, and I think everyone got veered off topic, cause at the end of the day, it's your choice. If you prefer a carburator, who cares about the reason, put a carb on it!
I'm one of those guys that has only ever worked on EFI, so I'd scratch my head for a little while trying to fix a carb... One day, I'll have my smog-excempt 67 Mustang, 289ci 4-speed, and I'll learn the ins and outs of carbureted engines!
Good luck!

 

[adsm08]

My biggest issue with EFI as far as working on it is i cant "see" whats going on. Theres way to much complicated diagnostic that has to happen.

That's not really correct though. You just need the right tools to see it going on.

Bring me a rough running OBDII vehicle and a good scanner.

I'll get you a carbed engine doing the same thing and any tools you want.

I'll bet you I can see more of what's going on and see it faster than you can.


Usually on EFI it's pull the codes, test two or three wires to make sure they aren't broken, and replace a single component like a coil or an injector.

My experience on carbs has been reset the carb adjusting screws, then pull each plug wire one at a time to see if any make it run worse, then check compression, then rip the carb apart and go through it with a magnifying glass, put it all back together, and HOPE it is better. Then when it isn't you have to do things like compression testing and tearing intakes off to replace gaskets.

 

[RonD]

Im telling you...

I have had waaay more problems from EFI shit then i ever have/had with carbs. Just my findings. Yours may differ.

My biggest issue with EFI as far as working on it is i cant "see" whats going on. Theres way to much complicated diagnostic that has to happen.

New isnt always better, just shinier.

Yes, I do agree that new is not always better, but that's been true since the beginning of time, lol
I give you the Feedback carb and the Edsel

Manual steering, manual brakes, manual windows, manual locks all require less learning to work on

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I'd like to know what year make and model those few EFI's Rusty has worked on. Sounds like you were working on someone else's nightmare and didn't have a scanner. When my truck has an issue I can normally figure out pretty quickly due to 1 or 2 factors...… 1-it's a daily driver so if something breaks then it should be obvious as it wasn't like that the day before or 2-plug in the obd2 scanner and it will tell you what it is. It's like what Rond said, you prefer carbs because you know them and that is due to the fact that you are always working on them. Since you are always working on them you either have to learn how to fix it or you pay someone else to fix it. Same for new cars. Either learn it or pay someone else. Unless it is something like a Mercedes that requires special computers and tools that only Mercedes dealers have then most vehicles can be fixed by us shade tree mechanics. I'm the type of man that prefers a challenge in life. If you tell me it's "hard" to do then I'm all about it. I absolutely hate myself when I say "I can't do that". If Joe Blow from down the street can fix it then I sure as hell can too. It's all about how you embrace the situation. If you see a newer car with engine issues do you immediately say "I can't work on it because I don't like this technology" or do you grab it by the horns and go for it?

Mostly EEC IV fords and early tritons TBI chevys....

Its not the "hardness", its the fact i lose paitence, fast.

Ron made a good point earlier, you need different tools. Yes with a screwdriver, vacuum gauage and some other stuff you can diagnose and tune a carb. Or with a good ear and instict just "know" whats going on. With EFI you have no idea whats happening without different tools. Most importantly a proper scan tool. With a good scanner you have massive amounts of live data on an efi system which makes diagnostics simple. Sometimes without even doing any more than pressing a button. I know your set in your ways but I would bet if you were given a good scanner and some free classes (That i know you wouldn't want... maybe if we chained you down lol) and learned efi better you would have different opinions.

But i understand where your coming from. At work I prefer to use my old manual operated bridgeport way more than dealing with the CNC stuff. Why? Because I can operate, repair, and understand that 100 year old machine alot better than trying to get the dumb robot computer controled nonsense to work for me. But i still accept the fact that a trained CNC operator can make everything faster than me.

My issue is scan tools dont tell the whole story always. Could be (and often is) wireing.

That's not really correct though. You just need the right tools to see it going on.

Bring me a rough running OBDII vehicle and a good scanner.

I'll get you a carbed engine doing the same thing and any tools you want.

I'll bet you I can see more of what's going on and see it faster than you can.


Usually on EFI it's pull the codes, test two or three wires to make sure they aren't broken, and replace a single component like a coil or an injector.

My experience on carbs has been reset the carb adjusting screws, then pull each plug wire one at a time to see if any make it run worse, then check compression, then rip the carb apart and go through it with a magnifying glass, put it all back together, and HOPE it is better. Then when it isn't you have to do things like compression testing and tearing intakes off to replace gaskets.

No offense, but you are about as good with carbs as i am with EFI.

....and if given the oppertunity for that challenge. Id take it. All id need is some starting fluid and a couple screw drivers.

Bet id have it apart, fixed, and rolling faster to.

 

[Dirtman]

Teaching rusty about efi is like teaching a blind person paint by numbers....

 

[Uncle Gump]

I think before i tried to put a 4bbl on a 3.0L... I would put 3 2bbl 40mm down draft Webers on it. I think someone actually posted an intake manifold for doing it that someone makes...