long time ago issue... need new advice

[bflooks]

hey guys, not sure who is still here from a year and half ago, but if anyone can help me out, it would be most appreciated. allow me to give some background on the whole situation...

i am a toyota guy to start, so ford/mazda's are new to me...

a year and a half ago, 3 of us attempted to get a mazda b2300 (1997) running after it had sat up in vermont for 3 months. after many weekend trips up and working on the truck in 20 degree weather, we finally got the timing belt replaced (thanks to advice given here) and got it to start for about 10 seconds. new problem was that it wouldn't start again, so we left it for the rest of the winter up there and towed it to mass. this spring. we were breaking in to doing all 8 plugs, wires, etc. to figure out the cause, and ended up having to remove the head because of a snapped plug on the primary (intake side). all that is fixed and the truck is back together now, and the timing tensioner spring has been replaced as well. so now we are current...

when trying to crank the motor over, we are not getting any spark. fuel is going, the engine is turning over fine, but that is it. we have tried arching the wires and coils and there is NO spark at either coil pack. with the ignition in the on position, there is power at the center pin on the plugs. we have a haynes manual, and it says to check the packs, which we did, and both seem to fail that test. what are the odds of this?

we have also read somewhere that a bad crank position sensor and a bad cam position sensor could cause no spark. same goes for a bad ecu ground, but this has been ruled out.

any and all help/suggestions would be MUCH appreciated! we are sick of working on this truck now, and it is so close to being running again... we could really use some of your expertise to help save ourselves from wasting time on foolish possibilities.

[Dave R]

Are you getting ANY trouble codes? Normally, the computer's are pretty good at self diagnosis. What test did the coil packs fail? Spark (lack thereof) or resistance (open circuit)?

[RobbieD]

Hey man! I remember you, and you're still working on this darn truck. Wow; ya'll are a tenacious bunch, ain't you? Like Dave R said, see what codes are there. Keep posting; we'll all either get this truck running or else have a heck of bonfire.

[TireIron]

well double chack and be sure the auxiliary sprocket on the timing belt is set correctly because that controls the cam sensor, and check to make sure the crank and cam sensors are not damaged and are plugged in and the wireing isnt damaged.

checking the codes will be good also, because if there is an issue with the actual ECU then in most cases it wont even be able to connect to the scanner properly.

[bflooks]

hey guys. thanks for hte replies...

yeah, we are still working on this thing. it sat for a LONG time because none of us could get together to work on it. we ended up removing the top end back in february, and we just got back to it and put it all back together with new seals and that stupid little $53 tensioning spring for the timing belt.

we got everything perfectly timed, so i don't think that is the issue (we actually had light and could feel our hands this time). we will recheck all of the connections for damage and try to get a code reader (truck hasn't started this time around, and i don't remember seeing a check engine light, but i will hook up the obd reader anyhow.

both coil packs failed both the spark test as well as the resistance test. however, the wiring has power on the center connection with the key in the on position, but that is not showing after the plug.

it looks like we are meeting up again this sunday on it, and i will hopefully have internet connection this time (only computer in the shop we were using was locked), so we will post up some real time findings and hope that someone with more knowledge is on at the time.

thanks again guys!

[RobbieD]

Another thing to look at that you didn't mention is the Ignition Control Module (not the main ECM, or ECU). Should be bolted to the intake manifold.

[bflooks]

Another thing to look at that you didn't mention is the Ignition Control Module (not the main ECM, or ECU). Should be bolted to the intake manifold.

i saw one box with a mess of wires on the intake side, and another box with less wires on the exhaust side. i believe those are the only 2 connections that we did not remove and clean out... gawd i hate electrical issues....

[RobbieD]

It's on the intake manifold. It's something that actually finally crapped out on my 350,000+ mile '94, and pulling the computer codes pointed me right to it. Just another thing to consider looking at when you dive back into this thing.

[bflooks]

okay, please school me on this one... even if there is no check engine light, on the mazda/ford platform... could there still be a code? reason being, i am going to ask someone close to where the truck is to see if the cel stays on or not. if it doesn't, i don't want to rule that out and will get the obd tool. however, if it triggers the light with any and all codes, and the light is not on, then i won't waste my time getting the tool.

[RobbieD]

I can try and give you a very simple desription, based on what little I know from thrashing on my older OBDI trucks. There's continuous memory codes, (CM) which are stored and can be past events. There is a self-test routine, key on engine off (KOEO) where the ECM looks everything over checking for problems, and finally there's key on engine running (KEOR) where the system does its checks while running. Your '97 will have OBDII management, so be sure to use the right scanner. Depending on what it is, having a code does not neccessarily light the CEL. Hope that this basic info helps.

[Dave R]

It's on the intake manifold.


'95 and newer engines do not have a TFI module.

[RobbieD]

Thanks, Dave, for straightening my bad. I thought the ICM carried over.

[bflooks]

I can try and give you a very simple desription, based on what little I know from thrashing on my older OBDI trucks. There's continuous memory codes, (CM) which are stored and can be past events. There is a self-test routine, key on engine off (KOEO) where the ECM looks everything over checking for problems, and finally there's key on engine running (KEOR) where the system does its checks while running. Your '97 will have OBDII management, so be sure to use the right scanner. Depending on what it is, having a code does not neccessarily light the CEL. Hope that this basic info helps.



this perfectly explains the answer to what i was asking. i will pick up the reader regardless. thanks.

[TireIron]

Do you know anyone with a known good coil pack that you could try? Even if you only get one you can try getting the passengerside running as that is the side it uses at startup. It may not run right and give a code with the other coil unlugged, but if you can get it running with one known good one then you can try getting a second. Maybe find one in a junkyard cheap (try testing it to see if it reads the same as yours first)

[bflooks]

Do you know anyone with a known good coil pack that you could try? Even if you only get one you can try getting the passengerside running as that is the side it uses at startup. It may not run right and give a code with the other coil unlugged, but if you can get it running with one known good one then you can try getting a second. Maybe find one in a junkyard cheap (try testing it to see if it reads the same as yours first)


i found both on car-parts.com for $40 shipped and have them in hand. i went with this option because it isn't even my truck, and i am not spending any extra cash to help someone if we don't even know if it will start again. lol!

if it proves to be the packs, that would be AWESOME!

[TireIron]

good luck, I hope thats it... definitly do the same test to those as the ones that are on the truck and see if you get the same results or not.

[Dave R]

Hmm, throwing $40 worth of coil packs at it seems a bit much. The cheaper OBDII code readers are about that price.

[bflooks]

hey guys,

we are with the truck now, and there are no codes coming from the ecu. there is still no spark. hte coils are the same as the ones that are in it, so i highly doubt that is it. i cleaned the crank sensor, but the crank pulley actually has some teeth missing on the sprocket part that is directly behind the pulley part where the serpentine belt goes (if that makes sense). would missing teeth make the sensor think it is failed?

[Dave R]

The '97 will have a 36-1 tooth wheel (sprocket) it has one tooth missing.

Did the ECu give no codes or did it give the system pass codes? (HUGE difference)

[anupaum]

The other thing I'm thinking of is the EDIS module itself. Does it have power? Can you unplug the SPOUT connector and check for voltage when you crank?

If you're getting a SPOUT signal but nothing is driving the coil, then you've either got a problem in your wiring or the EDIS module has gone kaput.

Does anyone else agree with my reasoning?

[bflooks]

The '97 will have a 36-1 tooth wheel (sprocket) it has one tooth missing.

Did the ECu give no codes or did it give the system pass codes? (HUGE difference)


so what if the wheel/sprocket is missing a lot of teeth? the pulley was frozen on the crank, and we ended up breaking some of them off when getting the pulley off (nearest parts store is 30 minutes away, and we didn't have a puller handy). will this cause the crank sensor to not read?

the ECU gave the system pass codes. for everything we tried. the read codes option, the mil status, etc.

[bflooks]

The other thing I'm thinking of is the EDIS module itself. Does it have power? Can you unplug the SPOUT connector and check for voltage when you crank?

If you're getting a SPOUT signal but nothing is driving the coil, then you've either got a problem in your wiring or the EDIS module has gone kaput.

Does anyone else agree with my reasoning?

2 questions on this.. what is the EDIS module and where is the spout connector? do both of these reference the coil packs and the plugs that connect to them?

[Dave R]

so what if the wheel/sprocket is missing a lot of teeth? will this cause the crank sensor to not read?
I believe it would still read it but if you have multiple teeth missing it will confuse the hell out of it.

[TireIron]

yea, with multiple teeth missing I highly doubt it would even run... I would say grab a puller and the correct socket and go by a junk yard and try and pull one of those without damageing it unless you know someone who happens to have one kicking around that they don't need anymore. That single missing tooth is what tells the computer when the engine is at TDC so if more than one tooth is missing the computer won't know whats going on.

[bflooks]

that is what we were starting to figure towards the end of the day yesterday. we tested everything we could, and everything has power going to it and what not, and then we started looking at the missing teeth and how that part of the pulley lines up perfectly with the sensor. we are in the process of looking for a new pulley and we are getting the crank sensor just in case we need that too (only $16, and we would like to have that incase the sensor is bad as well, and it is a special order part). i am going to swing over there later this week after work and see if it will start with the pulley replaced. if so, then we will finish putting the accessories back together and then it is time to look at doing brakes all around (we had to take the rear brakes apart because they were completely siezed from sitting so long with the ebrake on).

if we don't post before sunday, i believe we have set that day aside again for it, so there will be updates then.

i can't thank all of you guys enough. nothing sucks more than going at something with NO idea as to what you are looking at. it's nice being able to have our idea's confirmed/denied, etc without having to just replace parts "just to be sure."

[tomw]

FWIW, you can take the EDIS to a parts store, and they will test it for no charge, at least around here.
tom

[Dave R]

That single missing tooth is what tells the computer when the engine is at TDC so if more than one tooth is missing the computer won't know whats going on.

IF (big if) I remember correctly it's not TDC it's something like 40*BTC. The computer needs time to make it's calulations before actually firing the plugs.

I got to thinking about this a bit and the computer would probably not try to start the engine with additional teeth missing. It should know that something is seriously wrong and the frequency generated by the ring, it does more than just tell the computer where the pistons are, would be completely outside of the computer's programmed parameters.

[bflooks]

this is sounding more and more promising as we go. i am still waiting to hear back from the person who was supposed to be getting the pulley/sprocket to find out if i can get over to the truck to swap it out this week, or if i have to wait until the weekend. but so far, that has proven to be about as successful as us getting the truck started. :idiot:

[mustangmanblue94]

Well Guys let me introduce myself My Name is Jay Im am one of the 3 people that have been working on the truck with Bflooks and what a nice gey to be working with too...

well enuff of that.....

Just wanted to update you and let you know what we have accomplished the last time we were able to work on the truck...
I was able to get the crankshaft pulley and Installed it and guess what.. WE got our spark back which was a great spirt lifter but spark is all we get, the truck is still not running here is some info on what has been going on....

when we put starter fluid in the throttle body it is def. burning while we crank the motor but fails to start at all we can feel it sputter and hear it as well also when we are cranking the engine over the exhaust comming out the tailpipe is COLD AIR and NO smell what so ever , It smells like fresh air ( did we invent an oxgen machine :) )what gives We have No clue on this because it is def. smells like its burning in the engine compartment and we are even seeing smoke from the throttle body.

another thing we are unsure of is the firing order for this truck we have 3 diff. diagrams and we are not sure which one it is. We did use all 3 but none of them got the truck started.
One thing that is also a good thing is we now have a check engine light on, so next time we go we will bring a OBDII code reader and see what codes it spits out, maybe something that is keeping the engine from starting. Like the 2 year old gas that is in it LOL ( we will be changing that next time as well)

is there a way to check the injectors?
well I do want to thank y'all for all the wonderful advice and sticking with us.

Jay

[Dave R]

is there a way to check the injectors?
Not really, only way I was able to do it was to pull the injector rail, with the injectors attached away from then intake, then wire the injectors to the rail and then crank the engine. I warn you though, if the injectors are working correctly you'll be getting gas EVERYWHERE!


There should be cylinder ID numbers on the coils to help you with plug wire routing.

[TireIron]

Also, I don't remember if it's been checked before, but is the fuel pump running when you turn the key? When you turn the key to ON you should be able to hear the pump run for a couple seconds then stop. And do you have pressure at the schrader valve on the fuel rail?